ToME off of Wikipedia

Everything about ToME 4.x.x. No spoilers, please

Moderator: Moderator

Message
Author
catwhowalksbyhimself
Wyrmic
Posts: 249
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:19 am
Location: Plainville, CT

Re: ToME off of Wikipedia

#61 Post by catwhowalksbyhimself »

I'm not being defeatist--I'm sarcastically stating what Wikipedia actually requires. Well, a simple version anyway.
Grey wrote:Oh, don't be so defeatist :-) Also someone is writing a book on roguelikes at the moment - I'm sure ToME will get a worthy mention!
More sources don't hurt, but again, they want dead tree publications because for some reason internet sources aren't considered "notable" enough. PC Gamer is a dead tree publication that happens to have a website with it's articles there, so yes it does count, but only because of it's dead tree edition. If I remember correctly, you need two good notable sources, plus any number of lesser ones, so 1 more, plus other internet citations should do it.
Dacke wrote:Actually, what is needed is mention at websites with strong editorial integrity. I think the PCGamer piece fills this purpose, but that 1-2 more sources are needed.
"I am the cat that walks by himself. All ways are alike to me."
--Rudyard Kipling, "The Cat That Walked By Himself"

Dacke
Cornac
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:31 pm

Re: ToME off of Wikipedia

#62 Post by Dacke »

Sure, there is a bias towards dead-tree sources, but it is definitely not a requirement. The requirement is a strong editorial presence and a reputation for fact-checking. Our world is in a transition from physical to digital media, but unfortunately there aren't that many sites that have (or can afford?) solid fact-checking yet. But it's a correlation, not a law.

There are good exceptions. ToME being mentioned on http://arstechnica.com/ would most likely count as a reliable source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... le_sources
Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.
...
You may also use electronic media, subject to the same criteria.

darkgod
Master of Eyal
Posts: 10750
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Location: Angolwen
Contact:

Re: ToME off of Wikipedia

#63 Post by darkgod »

bump for more
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)

Crim, The Red Thunder
Sher'Tul Godslayer
Posts: 2000
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 8:26 pm
Location: Nahgharash

Re: ToME off of Wikipedia

#64 Post by Crim, The Red Thunder »

I just recently tried looking tome up on wikipedia, shocked to find this never did get added. Bump to keep this in peoples heads? (Edit: You are mentioned here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology ... ideo_games, along with many other 'roguelikes' that do have there own pages, yet are far less known and worthy of a historical entry then ToME... Hypocrisy sucks.)

Also, I don't think it got addressed earlier in the discussion, any chance said article submitted to wikipedia could include a history of the ToME project (in it's assorted forms.)? Was what I tried looking it up for. Particularly, I'm trying to pin down the transition from PernAngband to Troubles/Tales of Middle Earth. I know there was some sort of changeover, about the time Anne McCaffrey threw her hissy fit/tantrum over fanfiction, but not what actually precipitated the change, especially given that references to Pern were blatantly kept in...

Firstly, let's remember to get this up on Wikipedia. They can't refuse us, yet allow ADOM and other major roguelikes without being hypocritical.

Second, can anyone (probably darkgod, who is privy to all the design decisions) give us some sort of detailed autobiographical history of ToME?
Currently playing under the name Aura of the Dawn 4 down, 227 to go!
Proud author of Orc Pit Restoration Project, Faction Allies, Dwarven Adventurer addons
SadistSquirrel wrote:DarkGod has two arms, one with an opened hand, one with a closed fist. You got the fist.

b0rsuk
Halfling
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:39 am

Re: ToME off of Wikipedia

#65 Post by b0rsuk »

To be fair, Wikipedia and encyclopaedias in general are for documenting stuff. Instead, you were using it for advertising.

You were putting the cart before the horse. Have patience. Make it a good game, make it popular, influential, and people will pressure Wikipedia to make an article because Tome4 will be relevant to their lives.

In the same vein, I'm a fan of splitting a forum into subforums once it starts becoming unwieldy and specific needs of the community become apparent. If there are numerous threads about mods, create "modding" subforum. Many threads about bugs - make a Bugs subforum, or a tracker. Don't start by creating a hierarchy of subforums, you'll have a ghost town.

darkgod
Master of Eyal
Posts: 10750
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Location: Angolwen
Contact:

Re: ToME off of Wikipedia

#66 Post by darkgod »

Thanks for the implication that it's neither good nor popular :/

Let's see, I took a random entry from the list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Arch you tell me this game is more popular than tome ? Where ? What are the sources ? (not saying it's not a good game I have no idea I didnt even knew it).

As for the article being advertising, how so ?
I didnt write it, I may missing some subtleties there but it doesnt look like one.
If you think it does then please improve it so it does not.
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)

Crim, The Red Thunder
Sher'Tul Godslayer
Posts: 2000
Joined: Fri May 07, 2004 8:26 pm
Location: Nahgharash

Re: ToME off of Wikipedia

#67 Post by Crim, The Red Thunder »

b0rsuk wrote:To be fair, Wikipedia and encyclopaedias in general are for documenting stuff. Instead, you were using it for advertising.

You were putting the cart before the horse. Have patience. Make it a good game, make it popular, influential, and people will pressure Wikipedia to make an article because Tome4 will be relevant to their lives.

In the same vein, I'm a fan of splitting a forum into subforums once it starts becoming unwieldy and specific needs of the community become apparent. If there are numerous threads about mods, create "modding" subforum. Many threads about bugs - make a Bugs subforum, or a tracker. Don't start by creating a hierarchy of subforums, you'll have a ghost town.
As DG said, I'm not sure what you meant by advertising. If you look back at my post, I actually attempted to look up INFORMATIVE information, which is exactly what Wikipedia is for. Beyond that, the submitted article that was shown here on this topic is informative, at least as much as some of these pages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bindin ... eo_game%29 Quite short. Relatively little information. Doesn't even begin to compare to the detail that Tome held. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_of_Dredmor Also quite short with a lack of detailed information, and that's one of the more well-known recent roguelikes. I could go on, there are tons of these pages for one indie game or another that throw a few brief sentences at you, followed by a link to the homepage to buy it.

Maybe it's me, but it seems like we had a better page then many of these. I fail to see any 'advertising' in any of what was suggested for ToME's wikipedia page.

If your argument is that there isn't a reason for this information to be documented, ToME, both in it's current and it's previous T2 form are an integral and quite influential part of roguelike history. The former is at least as well known as things like ADOM, Rogue, and Angband. For that matter, T2 actually held a large enough audience to spawn it's own variant built on it's back. (NewAngband, later Portralis) This is not even counting that this is one of the first roguelikes to be accepting of player made content, setting another new standard to the genre. It's had enough influence with people to spawn a wikipedia article in the first place, prior to some ambiguously reasoned 'removal'. Trying to repair that mistake is... advertising, somehow? I can't seem to follow this logic.

Furthermore, your second paragraph could've been worded a bit more... politely.
Currently playing under the name Aura of the Dawn 4 down, 227 to go!
Proud author of Orc Pit Restoration Project, Faction Allies, Dwarven Adventurer addons
SadistSquirrel wrote:DarkGod has two arms, one with an opened hand, one with a closed fist. You got the fist.

greycat
Sher'Tul
Posts: 1396
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 11:51 pm

Re: ToME off of Wikipedia

#68 Post by greycat »

b0rsuk wrote:people will pressure Wikipedia to make an article
Isn't that what we've been doing?

supermini
Uruivellas
Posts: 800
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:44 pm

Re: ToME off of Wikipedia

#69 Post by supermini »

b0rsuk wrote: You were putting the cart before the horse. Have patience. Make it a good game, make it popular, influential, and people will pressure Wikipedia to make an article because Tome4 will be relevant to their lives.
It is a good game, it is quite a popular roguelike, it has influenced other roguelikes, and people are already pressuring for a wikipedia page. Not that I see the point of your remark, I thought it was about documenting and not a popularity contest.
<darkgod> all this fine balancing talk is boring
<darkgod> brb buffing boulder throwers

greycat
Sher'Tul
Posts: 1396
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 11:51 pm

Re: ToME off of Wikipedia

#70 Post by greycat »

It looks like the requested page hasn't actually been submitted since Jan 10, and was last edited Jan 14.

Have there been any more reviews of the game since then? They could be added as references.

The existing references can be looked through to see if some of them can be turned into footnotes to support content on the page. Especially the "Gameplay" section which has no footnotes at all. (Obviously one of *us* wrote it, which means Wikipedia would call it "original research".)

Mopman43
Yeek
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:04 am

Re: ToME off of Wikipedia

#71 Post by Mopman43 »

Perhaps this page could be improved upon?
http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment. ... title=ToME

Grey
Loremaster
Posts: 3517
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:18 pm
Location: London, England
Contact:

Re: ToME off of Wikipedia

#72 Post by Grey »

Crim, The Red Thunder wrote:Beyond that, the submitted article that was shown here on this topic is informative, at least as much as some of these pages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bindin ... eo_game%29 Quite short. Relatively little information. Doesn't even begin to compare to the detail that Tome held. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_of_Dredmor Also quite short with a lack of detailed information, and that's one of the more well-known recent roguelikes. I could go on, there are tons of these pages for one indie game or another that throw a few brief sentences at you, followed by a link to the homepage to buy it.
A few brief sentences is what they're supposed to be. Much of the problem with the original ToME article was too much irrelevant fluff. It is a video game. There's not much more to be said than that on Wikipedia.

There have been extra RPS articles referencing ToME recently, and these should provide some basis for a properly references article.
http://www.gamesofgrey.com - My own T-Engine games!
Roguelike Radio - A podcast about roguelikes

greycat
Sher'Tul
Posts: 1396
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 11:51 pm

Re: ToME off of Wikipedia

#73 Post by greycat »

OK, I did some more editing.

I don't know where those "extra RPS articles" are, so I couldn't add any new references, but I did make better use of the ones we already have.

Also, the article uses the {{infobox video game}} template but it contains several fields which appear to be from the {{infobox software}} template (and therefore don't actually appear in the article!). I don't even know which one is more appropriate. The video game template seems to have a bunch of assumptions about release dates in various regions, PAL vs, NTSC, and so on (i.e., console games). The software template has things like "most recent release" which would seem to fit better, but I don't necessarily want to give up the notion that it's a game.

b0rsuk
Halfling
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:39 am

Re: ToME off of Wikipedia

#74 Post by b0rsuk »

Reality check: Tome4 1.0.0 is half a year old, which does make it look like the page is a product of "Hey, let's promote our game on Wikipedia! Everyone else does!" crowd. Dredmor is 1.5 years old. Isaac is slightly younger.

Tome4 does look like a newcomer, even if that's not the justification they provide (if any). Maybe they overracted to a unnecessarily long article. And while It's an okay game and has top quality tiles as far as roguelikes go, I'm not sure what would make it influential. Certainly not the heavy use of MMO mechanics.

darkgod
Master of Eyal
Posts: 10750
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2002 9:26 pm
Location: Angolwen
Contact:

Re: ToME off of Wikipedia

#75 Post by darkgod »

Alright, what about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Starve a small commercial game that's been release in april, it looks fun but I'm not sure how influential it is either.
So why is it on wikipedia ? Because this does look a hell of a lot like advertisment as you say.

ToME is out for 3 years not 6 month BTW (being beta certainly doesnt count as many other things in beta status are there).
[tome] joylove: You can't just release an expansion like one would release a Kraken XD
--
[tome] phantomfrettchen: your ability not to tease anyone is simply stunning ;)

Post Reply