Fate Meta-Class: Subclasses: Wyrdthief, Oracle, Champion

[Parcae2]

This is a really neat idea and I would play the heck out of the addon.

One thing to bear in mind with guaranteed criticals is that monsters tend not to have a huge amount of critical chance by default (and are balanced around that), and also may be multiclassed. Guaranteed-crit Flurry from a monster with GWF? Ouch.

Possible idea for a resource: Cards. Using abilities requires dealing out cards, each of which has one of a variety of positive or negative effects. A generic tree makes you better at shuffling your deck so that positive cards are near the top. Start with, say, 10 cards and get a random new one every other level. You can't run out (hitting the bottom just means starting over), but cards near the bottom of the deck have a higher chance of being bad, especially as you get better at shuffling the deck.

Example: A high-level Wyrdthief nearing the bottom of his deck uses an ability requiring 3 cards. They are the Two of Baloney (low-level negative card, -10% damage for two turns), the Eight of Crabapples (mid-level negative card, take 10% of current HP as acid damage), and the Ace of Crabapples (high-level negative card, take 20% of max HP as acid damage).

[nate]

This sounds like an interesting idea. There aren't enough Luck based effects in ToME, in my opinion.

While there's a danger of too many different kinds of resource bars, I like the way you're doing things. For instance, since your +resource stat already exists, you don't have to dilute the ego pool to make equipment appropriate to your classes.

I'm not sure how meaningful the temporary infusion of luck from wearing a +luck item is. Let's imagine a player at 10 luck wears a +5 luck item-- now they're at 15, right? Then they spend 5 luck on abilities, so they're at 10 again. What happens when they take off the item? Do they drop to 5? (If so, the luck-from-items is so transient you might as well just scale the resource with the attribute.) If not, what happens when they put the item back on? Do they stay at 10? (If they rise to 15 again, what's to prevent gaming this?) Is that item's luck "used up" in some permanent sense? Are those +5 points of luck from items "used up" in some permanent sense, driving the player to seek larger and larger item-based luck bonuses for a small margin?

Of course, if luck is easy to gain, then none of that matters, but then, items giving a temporary infusion of luck don't matter either.

So I think there are a lot of pitfalls associated with this design, but depending on how you handle them, the potential for some really interesting gameplay. For instance, actually sucking the luck bonus from a piece of equipment (removing it entirely!) would be an interesting mechanic, as would treating your +luck items the way a junkie would treat heroin.

Preview: I really like Parcae's card/deck theme. Even if it doesn't fit your vision, you could have it be a locked, optional tree.

[Infinitum]

Must say I like the flavor of these classes more the more I think about them. More random ideas.

Re: Deck of Cards - I like your idea of having an actual deck of cards which the player draws from.

Regarding the cards themselves, I think they should be moderate length (about 10 turns?) buffs and debuffs. For recognition's sake I propose we use the classic Tarot deck (the usual 4 suits of 13 cards + the 22 Major Arcana cards used for scrying). The type of the buff/debuff would depend on the suite and strenght of the individual card (so the deuce of hearts might be a weak regeneration effect, and the king of spades a strong stats debuff for an instance). The Major Arcana would spice things up by adding stronger, more exotic effects as 1-ofs, and would later on encourage the player to shuffle often in order to reuse them (more on this further down).

The same effect cannot be drawn twice (again, no suits) unless the deck is shuffled, at which point all remaining cards are returned to the deck. It would probably be for the best if a "shuffled" deck isn't set in a specific order but rather uses a rng to choose between the remaining good and bad effects. That could in turn be weighed to factor in Shuffle talent level and luck as well as the actual cards remaining. If the Wyrdthief is indeed focused around temporarily stealing the enemies luck this would also tie nicely into the rest of the class. In fact, I've balanced some of these effects arounf the assumption that it cannot regenerate luck on its own (have to steal it from enemies) as a way to reduce spamming the deck to maximize buffs on the player prior to tough fights.

Rough sketch of a talent tree:

Shuffle (activated talent)
- At talent level 1 this grants the player the special artifact quest items "Cards of Power" and "Discard pile".
- The Cards may be used directly from the players inventory to draw a card and apply the effect directly to the player. This takes a turn, uses a small amount of luck and removes the drawn card from the deck. No cooldown. The probability of drawing a beneficial card scales with luck and the strength of card effects scales with Cunning.
- The Discard Pile keeps record of what cards have already been drawn from the deck and possiby which ones remain in it if description space allows.
- The shuffle talent itself is used to shuffle the deck - this is free to cast, takes a turn and returns all previously used cards to the deck. The player may only shuffle the deck if less than (Talent Level*20)% of the original cards remains in it. No cooldown.
- Each level in shuffle also adds slightly to the players luck when using card - related skills.

Deal (activated talent)
- No cooldown. Costs a moderate amount of luck to use. Deals a card from the deck to each enemy within [Talent Level + 2] squares of the player. The odds of this being a "bad" effect for the enemy scales with luck. The strength of the effect scales with Cunning. Each point in Deal also gives the player a speed bonus when using the Deck of Power and talents form the cards tree to represent their increased manual dexterity. The speed bonus scales with Dexterity.

Suite (passive talent)
- For each point in Suite the player (and monsters) may have 1 extra card affecting them simultaneously, up to a maximum of 5 cards. If the player or monster have a "hand" (same hands as in Poker), the duration and strenght of each individual card of that hand is enchanced by a factor pertaining to that particular hands strenght (so a monster having deuces of suck and misery would have extra damage and debuffs applied to it, whereas having the royal flush of awesome would make the PC effectively invulerable until it timed out). Having 5 points in this skill would let the player choose which card to replace when a card related skill is used on a monster/pc that already holds 5 cards.

Hustle (activated talent)
- Long cooldown. Immediatly allows the player to apply the effects from a card from the discard pile to either his/her own or target creatures hands, then return it back to the Deck of Power (so it might be drawn again later without shuffling). Doesn't cost any luck to use, but adds a -very- hefty negative luck modifier to any further card tree talents used (they don't take kindly to cheating). This modifier persists until the next time the deck is shuffled. Higher Talent levels reduces the luck malus and reduces cooldown. Scales with Cunning.

[Fayd]

While I really like the idea of a card system conceptually (and it would be a shared general thing between Wyrdthieves and Oracles as it thematically fits both), I'm too much of a novice to code either at these points.

As far as items go: Taking a +Luck item off drops your permanent and current luck. There could still be a strategy of equipping them before a big fight to get an infusion of luck for the fight, and taking them off afterwards to let things build up again.

I'm also thinking maybe a dice-based skill? I think it'd fit well enough.

[lukep]

Clever suggestion Aura, I like it.

Oh, by the way, modders.... How do I actually start this project? Like, how does one make an addon?

Probably the easiest way is to download a few class addons, and pick one and modify everything specific to the other class out. Also, the IRC channel is very helpful.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I would like to Suggest that Gambler would be a good name for a class of this king. Might even work better for the roguish class then Wyrdthief.

[Fayd]

Clever suggestion Aura, I like it.

Oh, by the way, modders.... How do I actually start this project? Like, how does one make an addon?

Probably the easiest way is to download a few class addons, and pick one and modify everything specific to the other class out. Also, the IRC channel is very helpful.

Good point; I think that makes sense.

And I will contemplate the name change to gambler... but I'm not quite sold on it. The "Thief" part is core and center of my design considerations so far.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

While I really like the idea of a card system conceptually (and it would be a shared general thing between Wyrdthieves and Oracles as it thematically fits both), I'm too much of a novice to code either at these points.

As far as items go: Taking a +Luck item off drops your permanent and current luck. There could still be a strategy of equipping them before a big fight to get an infusion of luck for the fight, and taking them off afterwards to let things build up again.

I'm also thinking maybe a dice-based skill? I think it'd fit well enough.

Not a perfect fit... but "Augury" for a tree name? Given how you're playing with 'fate', as in the future, that would sort of fit.

Try not to paint yourself into a corner with complexity yet, basic classes up and running first and add layers after that. Once you have your basic ideas up and running then you can branch out into making and adding more trees to support. Cards sound sort of difficult to code with varying success/fail rates at doing different things and could easily end up way too gimmicky to ever be reliable. (Granted, a gamble can be fun, but it might end up driving players away from wanting to take a chance.)

[Infinitum]

I think as long as the player can boost his luck enough cards should be made pretty reliable (if using the major/minor arcana the minor arcana could be used for boring old common damage/shield/boost stats/negative status with the major arcana providing the wacky special effects). Of course, this would also mean that the classes using it would need to start out at a low luck and somewhow build it during battles to prevent spamming.

Oh, and what about naming the luck resource "Karma"? It sort of fits, and it would make sense for a person with good karma to be lucky and the other way around.

[jotwebe]

Not a perfect fit... but "Augury" for a tree name? Given how you're playing with 'fate', as in the future, that would sort of fit.

Augury means telling the future by studying the flight of birds. Granted, the correct term for doing this with cards, "Cartomancy", sounds as if somebody made it up for his homemade roleplaying system, but it's where it's at.

Oh, and what about naming the luck resource "Karma"? It sort of fits, and it would make sense for a person with good karma to be lucky and the other way around.

But what does it do that Luck doesn't? Plus, we'd loose all those nice expressions like being "down on your luck", "out of luck", and so on. Double plus, karma has a moral dimension that luck hasn't and that doesn't fit at all with the class as described. Halflings are lucky, but if karma was a thing in Maj'Eyal they would have bad karma.

[Infinitum]

But what does it do that Luck doesn't? Plus, we'd loose all those nice expressions like being "down on your luck", "out of luck", and so on. Double plus, karma has a moral dimension that luck hasn't and that doesn't fit at all with the class as described. Halflings are lucky, but if karma was a thing in Maj'Eyal they would have bad karma.

For one thing it'd prevent people confusing luck the resource with luck the hidden statistic. Secodnly, "Karma" as a concept (however vague, hippified and separated from its philosophical roots) is instantly recognized by most as interwined with a persons fate as influenced by his/her actions (as well as outside forces reacting to those actions). Building Karma through various actions (moral or not) and spending it for effects would be intuitive as a resource imo.

Third, Karma Police. The Wyrdthief be on the run from it.

[Fayd]

But the hidden statistic and luck ARE one in the same. In my conception, at least at the moment.

[Sradac]

"Champion: Gains from "Lucky Moments" (crits, dodges, and so on... they snowball, but that's part of the point)."

This. I like this. Reminds me of the Luck / Morale system from heroes of might and magic. Talent idea time.

Twist Fate
Sustained

You have had it with Fate telling you how things are going to turn out, so you are taking things into your own hands now.
If you fail 5 saving throws in a row within a moderate period of time (20 turns? 30 turns?) You gain a large boost to...something. Resource pool? Saves? Speed? Phys power? A combination of these?

[Fayd]

All interesting ideas... I'm going to have to consider them. As far as actually coding goes, I looked at some mods to get an idea of what to do but MAN OH MAN they're hard to read. Maybe I'm using the wrong program or maybe nobody has ever heard of line breaks. I'm betting on the former.

I notice there are tutorials for how to make modules, but I cannot seem to find an accompanying guide for Addons. Does one exist and I am crap at searching (quite possibly true) or should I just take what I can from the module guide (it's pretty good for LUA coding).

I'm asking here instead of on the IRC because of several reasons: 1. I don't actually have an IRC client at this time and also have been incredibly busy, so I haven't looked into it yet. 2. I will be away from my computer until Sunday afternoon (and then I'll be reading my homework so I'm still not likely to get to work then either).

Anyway, thanks for all your help! Keep it coming, of course, but... Well, I supose I should give you my current thoughts on what the talents for Wyrdthief are at least for now:

Techniques/Dual Weapons (Class)
Techniques/Dual Techniques (Class)
Cunning/Lethality
Cunning/Stealth (Class)
Fated/Thievery (Class)
-Steal Luck, Steal Weapon, Steal Heart, Steal Life
Fated/Heist (Class, Locked)
-higher grade stealing things, including Spontaneous Combustion
Fated/Grace (Class)
-Mobility and stealth bonuses
Fated/Guarantees (Class, maybe locked?)
-See Earlier posts


Techniques/Combat Training (Generic)
Cunning/Survival
Fated/Chaos (Generic)
-utility effects, generic to Fated Classes
Fated/Gambler (Generic)
-Interesting Dice based skills, I know what to do here
Fated/Dealer (Generic, Locked)
-I like the card-ideas, though I will probably alter the specific implementation for my own sake. This will be an unlocked tree at start for Oracles.

[King Gainer]

I think the idea of karma as a resource would be less confusing then the luck as resources and stat version.
Otherwise I really like these concepts.