vim-generating egos (ex. "defiled")

[SageAcrin]

If there's a reason to remove these, it's because people think they "trivialize" a mechanic that can be side-stepped by remembering you have Drain, as any time there are no enemies around, you don't actually need Vim, and Drain restores sufficient Vim in nearly all cases.

I think it's really minor. Hate and Paradox are the two other majorly restrictive (at least in theory) resources, and the nature of Hate makes these wands useless, while IIRC there's no Paradox equivalent. So there's nothing particularly wrong, to me, with removing Vim from this equation.

For some strange reason, these topics keep getting made, so whatever. If it bothers people so much, I'm not against a removal, because it does so very little...

By your logic there's also no reason not to add passive vim regeneration. You don't understand why "these topics keep getting made" because you're missing the point, and given that you don't even have a reason against their removal I don't understand why you're bothering to comment at all.

So vim management is trivial, and I do agree with you there. Why not just remove vim entirely and make defiler talents free? And hey, you know, hate and paradox management are pretty easy too so why not just remove those resource bars as well? It's not like it's actually going to matter, right? Also, Norgos is pretty easy so he should just instantly die the moment he enters the player's FoV.

Just because two things are practically the same doesn't mean that they should be made exactly the same.

I like to think you just missed all the edits in my last post before you posted that. That doesn't excuse the fact that you had to see the post before you posted, though. So, I'm not amused at all.

Regardless, said post explains the situation in regards to Vim, in my opinion-and why an emergency extreme restore fits it better than constant regeneration. It is the difference between learning the playstyle-which I find interesting-of Corruptors and "Hey let's rest all the time like every other class".

It's very, very close to a non-issue from an optimal play standpoint, but it also requires thought.

An optimal play standpoint is the only time spamming a wand for ages would even be useful. Therefore, it's a non-issue, or very close to one, unless you're non-optimal at the playstyle of Corruptor/Reaver-at which point, you are not going to want to sit there spamming that wand unless you feel you have absolutely no other option, at which point, having a terrible, terrible option is better than none.

I do agree that the answer there needs to be better-that's why I suggested a different answer, one that doesn't remove the effect, but removes the tedium. But just making it a case of removing the playstyle trait-which Vim on rest does, in addition to totally violating the theme-is also not desirable to me. Corruptor and Reaver have simple playstyles, and something that makes them more interesting is a good thing to me.

But, please, continue comparing my statements to ridiculous things and not actually reading my posts. Obviously, I have no reason for my standpoint, you said so yourself.

[jotwebe]

Reaver/Corruptor writeup

Eh, I think most people commenting here are familiar with how the classes work. No disagreements in principle:

In both cases, your opening expenditure is recouped, at least against random enemies, by your spell killing the enemy. Against a boss, you should have kept your Vim high enough before that to not be an issue-If you're playing well, you should only be running low going into a major (durable) threat because you ran into multiple major (durable) threats just beforehand. It happens once in a while, but that's part of the class' fun.

See, that is exactly why I keep harping on this. Tome doesn't have a hunger clock and no consumables, and while in some ways that's nice, I don't like how I every fight turns into a binary "win/loose" thing, or anyway, once in a while I want to play a class where that isn't so. As you said, that's part of the fun.

It limits your play, somewhat, and that's one of the neater elements of Reaver and Corruptor. But with good play, the actual benefit of not having to use Drain-which is a solid, if not special, spell even outside of its Vim drain-is admittedly existant, but really hard to pin down, definitely minor, and certainly not spending tens of thousands of turns spamming a wand.

I think it's a bit bigger than that. Plus, it takes away the "with good play" part, making it superfluos and replacing it with patience.

And, as a note, I'd rather see the wands removed than Vim get a normal rest-to-full mechanic. It doesn't fit it-the current mechanic of requiring tons of sacrifice to fill it up fits more.

Sure, me too.

However, here's a thought for formalizing it-make it a representable cost.

The most thematic way I can think of to do this is to add a skill-call it Vim Extraction, say. As a basic skill to both classes, like Spacetime Tuning, only one level. That allows you to convert any powered by nature item into Vim. Say, maybe (Willpower/10) Vim per Gold you would have gotten from the item selling/transmogging.

Ugh, no.

First off, this runs counter to the no-consumables thing tome has going. It would either lead to annoying item management, people stockpiling nature items in the fortress or vaults (if you make vim expensive) or make them an irrelevance like alchemist gems (if you make vim cheap). On top of that I don't really see the need, since, as you wrote, Drain and Bloodcasting are available.

[edge2054]

Game balance issues aside...

Spamming a wand that generates vim in order to get vim back is tedious and unfun. Tedium shouldn't be encouraged and it shouldn't be optimal.

So I agree that it should be removed or maybe changed to vim on crit.

[notmiki]

Situations where itemcasting to regain vim is optimal - in the sense that it is worth the real-world time it takes to do it even on autocast - are so rare that anyone who has held on to a vim-regaining item for just that circumstance should be rewarded for their perceptiveness. 99 times out of 100 the best option will be to open combat with drain, to cast vimsense, or to use bloodcasting. leave it in.

[Dacke]

I strongly agree with the anti-scumming crowd. Optimal play and fun play should be one and the same; pointless grinding/waiting should never be the optimal choice.

[HousePet]

Using a vim recharge wand is never an optimal choice.

Drain and Vimsense/Leech are far superior.

(I'd still like Bloodcasting moved somewhere else, having to take Drain on every corruptor makes me sad)

[SageAcrin]

This is turning into meta-discussion, so I'll explain this to you via private message.

The original topic was about removing out-of-combat vim generation. You pretended that everyone is just irrationally calling for its removal because you... think they forgot that Drain exists? Really now? That is a ridiculous statement which deserves to be compared to ridiculous things. If you're going to be snide to others, expect an equally rude response.

I didn't respond to your following post because you managed to construct that one like an actually decent human being, even though the actual content was a complete backpedal and still poorly thought out (as jotwebe quickly pointed out).

Ah, you PMed me so you could insult me in private.

How nice.

The instigator plays the victim.

How very expected.

By the way, I don't appreciate people trying to flame me in private, because they don't have any of the nerve to do it in public, or because they wish to save face.

Just saying. If anyone else has the idea of PMing me insults, they should learn to not bother.

It'll be a waste though. I've learned my lesson-ToME forums aren't as nice as I thought they were, I guess, so I've shut off PMs.

[Velorien]

By the way, I don't appreciate people trying to flame me in private, because they don't have any of the nerve to do it in public, or because they wish to save face.

Just saying. If anyone else has the idea of PMing me insults, they should learn to not bother.

It'll be a waste though. I've learned my lesson-ToME forums aren't as nice as I thought they were, I guess, so I've shut off PMs.

Because dragging a private flame war into a public thread where people are trying to have a discussion about something else is clearly the mature response.

I respect both of you for valuable input you've made to other threads, but this is ridiculous. Donkatsu had the right idea in moving an off-topic issue between two people to PM; that is where it belongs, not in this thread which is for people to discuss the implications of vim-restoring egos. If you feel that donkatsu is insulting you (which a reasonable interpretation of the messages you quote), then ignore him, insult him back, try to raise the dialogue to a more meaningful level, or complain to a moderator. Don't appeal to the crowd as if we're spectators in some kind of gladiatorial battle for the moral high ground. That's not why we're here. We're here for one reason: to argue about computer games.

[Grey]

I'm really disappointed that people feel the need to trade insults on these boards. This is usually one of the most friendly places online :-(

[SageAcrin]

If it helps, as far as I'm concerned, the conversation between Donkatsu and I is over, now.

This sort of thing makes everyone involved look bad, and I feel like I'm getting smeared for not keeping private a continuation of a conversation that was public. Which I expected, of course-I'm not stupid, and I know some people think PMs should always stay private.

I respect you calling me childish for it, Velorien. I'd like to share my viewpoint-you don't have to agree with it, I'd just like to share.

I never agreed to keep anything private, nor did I request any kind of private discussion, or even have that request made of me-this was foisted on me, this "continuation of a flame war" wherein I said about ten words in said continuation.

I certainly never had any intention of getting insulted to my face in a private venue-if I had thought that was likely, I would have disabled PMs sooner.

If I were to keep such communication private, I would be allowing someone to be abusive in private in order to save face in public. I sure don't get much out of that deal. I don't feel like anyone else Donkatsu might do that to later, or possibly has done this to in the past, would get much out of that, either.

Some people use social mores, like privacy, as a weapon. To beat people into submission. I don't know if Donkatsu does this, perhaps this is exceptional. But perhaps not. Regardless, making the information public is nothing but good for the community-if someone has a pattern of behavior, of using private messaging to abuse people and show a nice "public" face, people should know that, so they know what to expect.

As Grey said, I'm disappointed. I didn't think I had to worry about stuff like this because I was...dismissive? Not overly effusively enthusiastic? Didn't detail my viewpoint well enough in my first post to not get insulted for it, even though I had detailed my viewpoint in another post, before I was attacked?

Regardless, I try pretty hard to be nice to people. Sometimes I screw up, but it's not intended. And I don't feel like I did anything nearly enough to deserve being put through the wringer like this.

I mean, I've been short tempered with, say, supermini, at points. It happens, I like to think we both don't hold any grudge-I sure don't. People have strong opinions, sometimes. This isn't an argument-this is me getting attacked repeatedly, out of the blue, with at best very little reason.

Also, as to not sidetracking the original topic:

http://git.develz.org/?p=tome.git;a=com ... 7c33e547e6

I think the original topic is basically over, anyways. Overall, it would probably be best if everyone moved on-if there's more Vim related subjects, making new threads would make sense. There'd be less drama in those, probably.

[supermini]

I mean, I've been short tempered with, say, supermini, at points. It happens, I like to think we both don't hold any grudge-I sure don't.

<3

To bring peace and harmony back to this thread, here is a picture of a kitten:

[supermini]

Back on topic, draining summoned creatures (allies?) should not give you vim, because it makes for cheesy draining of spiders from the egg-sac (and other summoned creatures). What do you think?

[Frumple]

Let it happen, but special case it so vim-drain effects turn allies hostile even if they normally wouldn't.

[jotwebe]

Back on topic, draining summoned creatures (allies?) should not give you vim, because it makes for cheesy draining of spiders from the egg-sac (and other summoned creatures). What do you think?

Agreed. Thalore Treants and Yeek Mindslayers. The vampire nec?lace, if that's still around.

There's also leaving low-level dungeons as larders - isn't there a cut-off number of levels below yours where enemies won't give any xp? Seems like that would make a decent point where you shouldn't get any vim either - "XYZ's life force is a weak and paltry thing, useless for your purposes."

Also lumberjacks and townspeople.

Let it happen, but special case it so vim-drain effects turn allies hostile even if they normally wouldn't.

Wouldn't fix the problem. Just teleport away, rest, repeat.

[Velorien]

There's also leaving low-level dungeons as larders - isn't there a cut-off number of levels below yours where enemies won't give any xp? Seems like that would make a decent point where you shouldn't get any vim either - "XYZ's life force is a weak and paltry thing, useless for your purposes."

I could be wrong, but I don't think that cut-off actually works. It's supposed to be "your level - 5", but I've previously obtained XP from creatures 7-8 levels lower than me. I suspect it might more be the case that the XP gain is so low relative to how much you need for your next level that you no longer register it.