vim-generating egos (ex. "defiled")

[jotwebe]

I've seen those on wands where you get a couple of vim points per use, and that breaks the whole vim mechanic if one has the patience to abuse it. Resting should not be an option to regain vim.

Extra vim on kills is fine, extra vim on critting things I think so, too (so long as summons/allies/self-inflicted wounds are taken care of).

Extra vim on getting hit (don't know if there's anything like that around) would be problematic, since you could stand in a corner and use Flamespit on yourself all day.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

I seem to recall a wand of firewall that offered vim on use. It wouldn't work when I just fired at empty air... Have you found one that isn't on that? And it's not 'broken' if it takes time. One can always slaughter adventurers/farmers with drain for all the vim one needs. Sure you'd have to leave the dungeon, go fin something to fill your meter with, and then come back, but still. Heck, leech works too, at high levels just a few hits totally refills your vim meter, and heals you to boot.

Vim is 'life force', you can freely steal that from allies. In fact, egg sac of Ungole is quite useful for this purpose. Whistle up some mooks, and drain them for Vim. It's part of the vileness and corruption of being a defiler. Kills of allies work, and drain gets vim off them to. So do crits on them. (Crits on YOU also generate vim, but suffice to say, that's not easy to work with.)

[jotwebe]

I seem to recall a wand of firewall that offered vim on use. It wouldn't work when I just fired at empty air... Have you found one that isn't on that? And it's not 'broken' if it takes time. One can always slaughter adventurers/farmers with drain for all the vim one needs. Sure you'd have to leave the dungeon, go fin something to fill your meter with, and then come back, but still. Heck, leech works too, at high levels just a few hits totally refills your vim meter, and heals you to boot.

I don't recall exactly on what kind of wand it was, only that it was "on use" and AFAIK you can fire wands at empty air all day if you want. However, my main point:

It is broken if all it takes is time. Vim should be different and distinct from mana: There should be no vim without risk. Good point about leaving dungeons, perhaps in addition to the rank of enemies the xp value should also figure into vim gain.

Vim is 'life force', you can freely steal that from allies. In fact, egg sac of Ungole is quite useful for this purpose. Whistle up some mooks, and drain them for Vim. It's part of the vileness and corruption of being a defiler. Kills of allies work, and drain gets vim off them to. So do crits on them. (Crits on YOU also generate vim, but suffice to say, that's not easy to work with.)

That should also change. Back in the day you could use drain on yourself, and that got fixed, too.

[bricks]

Thematics aside, it's probably better to introduce a minor regeneration term, small enough that it only kicks in noticeably when resting. There will always be tedious/abusive ways to recover vim.

[supermini]

I agree with the OP here. If there are ways to abuse getting vim, they should be taken out (that includes draining spider/treants).

[jotwebe]

Thematics aside, it's probably better to introduce a minor regeneration term, small enough that it only kicks in noticeably when resting. There will always be tedious/abusive ways to recover vim.

Well I hope not. Otherwise what's the point in having vim and not just use mana? Thematics don't really enter into it.

[bricks]

Because there are egos, multiple talents and a rune based around increasing mana regeneration, while vim recovery is decidedly punctual (talent-based, kill-based, item-proc-based). Plus, performing tedious actions (i.e.; running to an uncleared low-level dungeon to pump up my vim before a tough fight) shouldn't be encouraged.

[HousePet]

Tedious actions should be dissuaded with carrots not sticks.

I find the resource regen on those items too weak to bother with.

I also find it odd that you can't use your own life to regenerate your vim.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Uhhh... you can, it's called bloodcasting. Unless you meant literally using your HP to bump your vim up. I can't say I'd like that, HP is easy to heal, whereas vim is most definitely not. That would effectively offer infinite vim to the class, which could have repercussions if you stop having to worry about vim management during a fight. If you can just shift your hp to fill vim after every enemy, then hit a regen infusion, it doesn't exactly seem balanced. Now, as it stands, it takes so long to bump vim up with vim on use items, or summoned creatures, that it's largely impractical outside of dire straits where you have no vim, or right before a boss. (Manaclash is particularly harsh on vim users; which is why I adore finding the Egg-sac for a reaver/corruptor.)

[supermini]

I also find it odd that you can't use your own life to regenerate your vim.

That would make vim trivial to regen outside combat.

[SageAcrin]

If there's a reason to remove these, it's because people think they "trivialize" a mechanic that can be side-stepped by remembering you have Drain, as any time there are no enemies around, you don't actually need Vim, and Drain restores sufficient Vim in nearly all cases.

I think it's really minor. Hate and Paradox are the two other majorly restrictive (at least in theory) resources, and the nature of Hate makes these wands useless, while IIRC there's no Paradox equivalent. So there's nothing particularly wrong, to me, with removing Vim from this equation.

For some strange reason, these topics keep getting made, so whatever. If it bothers people so much, I'm not against a removal, because it does so very little...

[HousePet]

Last time the complaint was for thematic reasons.

Meh, if people want to do tedious stuff, its up to them.

[jotwebe]

Because there are egos, multiple talents and a rune based around increasing mana regeneration, while vim recovery is decidedly punctual (talent-based, kill-based, item-proc-based). Plus, performing tedious actions (i.e.; running to an uncleared low-level dungeon to pump up my vim before a tough fight) shouldn't be encouraged.

How is summoning a couple of spiders with the egg sack and draining them for vim, again and again, not tedious? Or spamming a lighting wand for 4 vim per cast on empty air? I agree on the dungeon thing, of course. That's why I think you should get no vim from speed bumps.

Because there are egos, multiple talents and a rune based around increasing mana regeneration, while vim recovery is decidedly punctual (talent-based, kill-based, item-proc-based).

Not sure if that is sufficient differentiation. It would take away vim's status as a long-term resource you need to husband carefully.

If it turns out there's really no way to make this watertight, maybe vim should just get a non-tedious way to regenerate to full between combat, sort of like Spacetime Tuning works at the moment.

Tedious actions should be dissuaded with carrots not sticks.

How's that for a carrot?

Now, as it stands, it takes so long to bump vim up with vim on use items, or summoned creatures, that it's largely impractical outside of dire straits where you have no vim, or right before a boss. (Manaclash is particularly harsh on vim users; which is why I adore finding the Egg-sac for a reaver/corruptor.)

What's impractical about it? Tedious I grant you, but there's a difference. Good point about Manaclash, it might be a good idea to have it hit vim-users with a bad status effect that temporarily makes the amount of vim in question unavailable for 30 turns or so. Should be of type "other" so it's not clearable.

If there's a reason to remove these, it's because people think they "trivialize" a mechanic that can be side-stepped by remembering you have Drain, as any time there are no enemies around, you don't actually need Vim, and Drain restores sufficient Vim in nearly all cases.

Not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you arguing that because of Drain you don't need to watch your vim usage? That there isn't a huge difference going into a fight with Drain on cooldown and vim for a couple of spells compared to starting with a full bar and having Drain in reserve to recoup your opening expenditures?

Last time the complaint was for thematic reasons.

Meh, if people want to do tedious stuff, its up to them.

Eh, I think tedious stuff should be discouraged or better shut down, if possible. Otherwise you get people farming orc babies and then complaining insane mode got to easy.

[SageAcrin]

...there isn't a huge difference going into a fight with Drain on cooldown and vim for a couple of spells compared to starting with a full bar and having Drain in reserve to recoup your opening expenditures?

In theory, there could be. There would be if, say, there was a tank Vim class. One with relatively poor damage.

In practice, there's this thing about Vim. It's given to two classes that are hands down the biggest damage dealers in the game...and then you refund your killing spell's Vim, with a Willpower based bonus(and you'll get some incidental Willpower, even if you don't build it, enough to get 3-6 Vim back).

It was sorta a problem when Corrupted Strength didn't refund 8 Vim for kills, but now, you often get Reaver skill Vim back anyways.

Both classes have this tendency to drop random enemies like rocks, though. In Corruptor's case, it specializes in class based critical bonuses that make Drain crits do insane(500+) damage quite quickly(30+), which means a full restore. Even early on, Drain sucking up 30-40 Vim is not hard. Going into the fight with Drain on cooldown doesn't matter when it's less "a few spells" and more a full tank of Vim, though.

In Reaver's case, it requires more effort, but they tend to not use tons of it, either, generally tossing out 10-15 Vim with skills. The most expensive Vim skills they have are Dark Portal(an escape) and Vimsense(which refunds more Vim if you're using it with any Leech at all...and why you wouldn't is beyond me, for Reaver at least.).

In both cases, your opening expenditure is recouped, at least against random enemies, by your spell killing the enemy. Against a boss, you should have kept your Vim high enough before that to not be an issue-If you're playing well, you should only be running low going into a major (durable) threat because you ran into multiple major (durable) threats just beforehand. It happens once in a while, but that's part of the class' fun.

The short version is, you cast Drain first on anything you see, as long as there's no major danger, and you get into that habit-and, since your resource doesn't drain fast, due to the refunds on deaths with a small bonus, you have the Vim to avoid the dangerous potential of using the wrong skill in a really risky situation. Once you learn that, you're pretty good.

It limits your play, somewhat, and that's one of the neater elements of Reaver and Corruptor. But with good play, the actual benefit of not having to use Drain-which is a solid, if not special, spell even outside of its Vim drain-is admittedly existant, but really hard to pin down, definitely minor, and certainly not spending tens of thousands of turns spamming a wand.

And, as a note, I'd rather see the wands removed than Vim get a normal rest-to-full mechanic. It doesn't fit it-the current mechanic of requiring tons of sacrifice to fill it up fits more.

However, here's a thought for formalizing it-make it a representable cost.

The most thematic way I can think of to do this is to add a skill-call it Vim Extraction, say. As a basic skill to both classes, like Spacetime Tuning, only one level. That allows you to convert any powered by nature item into Vim. Say, maybe (Willpower/10) Vim per Gold you would have gotten from the item selling/transmogging.

This makes thematic sense-you're literally sucking the natural life force out of the item. It's certainly only good in emergencies-you won't get full power from it from one item. You can only carry so many powered by nature items around anyways, so there's a strong limitation. And it doesn't really interfere with how they play-you can't possibly eat items constantly without a real cash loss, if at all.

And it still makes for a much less tedious way to produce Vim. It just allows you to pay a cost that isn't tedium.

Thoughts?

[donkatsu]

If there's a reason to remove these, it's because people think they "trivialize" a mechanic that can be side-stepped by remembering you have Drain, as any time there are no enemies around, you don't actually need Vim, and Drain restores sufficient Vim in nearly all cases.

I think it's really minor. Hate and Paradox are the two other majorly restrictive (at least in theory) resources, and the nature of Hate makes these wands useless, while IIRC there's no Paradox equivalent. So there's nothing particularly wrong, to me, with removing Vim from this equation.

For some strange reason, these topics keep getting made, so whatever. If it bothers people so much, I'm not against a removal, because it does so very little...

By your logic there's also no reason not to add passive vim regeneration. You don't understand why "these topics keep getting made" because you're missing the point, and given that you don't even have a reason against their removal I don't understand why you're bothering to comment at all.

So vim management is trivial, and I do agree with you there. Why not just remove vim entirely and make defiler talents free? And hey, you know, hate and paradox management are pretty easy too so why not just remove those resource bars as well? It's not like it's actually going to matter, right? Also, Norgos is pretty easy so he should just instantly die the moment he enters the player's FoV.

Just because two things are practically the same doesn't mean that they should be made exactly the same.