Right now, flexible combat gives a straight 60% chance for an additional attack which is quite powerful. If we compare it with Greater Weapon Focus, it's like a permanent 6.5 level GWF with 90 dex.
My suggestion is to make it scale with cunning, much like GWF does with dex, with 60% being the upper end with 100 cunning.
Flexible Combat scaling
Moderator: Moderator
Flexible Combat scaling
<darkgod> all this fine balancing talk is boring
<darkgod> brb buffing boulder throwers
<darkgod> brb buffing boulder throwers
Re: Flexible Combat scaling
Cunning makes it horrifyingly niche.
Also, it's a strength skill.
Also, it uses a physical skill that is always going to be weaker than your basic physical, for anyone but Brawler. Direct GWF comparisons are off base due to this.
Also, it's broken right now for non-Brawlers and we can't tell how good it is.
Also, Brawler was, up until very recently, a class with no identity besides "Rogue type with +2 HP, less versatility, and a different weapon", and only the glove rebalances and Flexible Combat keep it from falling back into that.
This is really premature as an idea. If it were to scale off something, I'd suggest Strength-which wouldn't change its role notably, as anyone likely to grab it gets Strength to 60 anyways. And it's attempting to fix something that isn't known to be broken yet.
I'd rather just see its flat rate bonus changed-if it needs it. Having ran a Brawler with it, I don't feel like it does, and for any other classes, it's impossible to tell right now.
Also, it's a strength skill.
Also, it uses a physical skill that is always going to be weaker than your basic physical, for anyone but Brawler. Direct GWF comparisons are off base due to this.
Also, it's broken right now for non-Brawlers and we can't tell how good it is.
Also, Brawler was, up until very recently, a class with no identity besides "Rogue type with +2 HP, less versatility, and a different weapon", and only the glove rebalances and Flexible Combat keep it from falling back into that.
This is really premature as an idea. If it were to scale off something, I'd suggest Strength-which wouldn't change its role notably, as anyone likely to grab it gets Strength to 60 anyways. And it's attempting to fix something that isn't known to be broken yet.
I'd rather just see its flat rate bonus changed-if it needs it. Having ran a Brawler with it, I don't feel like it does, and for any other classes, it's impossible to tell right now.
Re: Flexible Combat scaling
As I wrote the post, I was expecting one from you telling me how you think this is a horrible idea. I don't know why, but I did. 
I'm not sure if cursed would use it in any case because it probably affects rampage?
It would be good for brawlers, rogues, arcane blades, berserkers who boost cunning, marauders, wyrmics that boost cunning, any mindstar build.
That's hardly niche.
If that bothers you so much, I'm prepared to concede the point. Make it scale off strength.
Flexible combat should be a sidegrade for non-brawlers, not a no brainer. At least in my opinion.SageAcrin wrote:Cunning makes it horrifyingly niche.
I'm not sure if cursed would use it in any case because it probably affects rampage?
It would be good for brawlers, rogues, arcane blades, berserkers who boost cunning, marauders, wyrmics that boost cunning, any mindstar build.
That's hardly niche.
If that bothers you so much, I'm prepared to concede the point. Make it scale off strength.
Direct GWF comparisons only matter for brawlers, because they are the ones that are going to care mostly about the damage. The rest are getting it for the effects.Also, it uses a physical skill that is always going to be weaker than your basic physical, for anyone but Brawler. Direct GWF comparisons are off base due to this.
This is mostly about rescaling it so it's 30% on level 30 and around 60% on level 50.Also, it's broken right now for non-Brawlers and we can't tell how good it is.
If Brawler needs a prodigy to be good/interesting, it's a poor way to balance a class.Also, Brawler was, up until very recently, a class with no identity besides "Rogue type with +2 HP, less versatility, and a different weapon", and only the glove rebalances and Flexible Combat keep it from falling back into that.
I'm fine with it either way.This is really premature as an idea. If it were to scale off something, I'd suggest Strength-which wouldn't change its role notably, as anyone likely to grab it gets Strength to 60 anyways.
I disagree. The idea is to introduce scaling so that you don't get 60% on level 30.And it's attempting to fix something that isn't known to be broken yet.
I'd rather not have the flat rate bonus changed. I don't have a problem with flexible combat giving 60% for brawlers, but I do have a problem with giving it on level 30.I'd rather just see its flat rate bonus changed-if it needs it. Having ran a Brawler with it, I don't feel like it does, and for any other classes, it's impossible to tell right now.
<darkgod> all this fine balancing talk is boring
<darkgod> brb buffing boulder throwers
<darkgod> brb buffing boulder throwers
Re: Flexible Combat scaling
I note that you skipped out on the Strength thematics point. <_< It'd look extremely strange to have a Strength skill scale off of Cunning, of all things.
Too good, probably. But there were plenty of Rogue types and lower physical power classes in general that skipped it, and with good reason. It was not a relatively huge bonus to damage compared to, say, Lucky Day.
It's mostly useless for those types, now, which I'm okay with, since the target audience now no longer has it as what was, indeed, too obvious of a skill.
But it's not overly centralizing. Arcane Blade gets a huge amount out of it...and a lot of other Prodigies, they tend to love an amazing amount of them. Berserker, maybe, but Berserker has a lot of great AM build prodigies now(Spell Feedback, Superpower) as well. And those are the two best users of it.
It's admittedly hard to say for sure until we get feedback on the 60% version.
Many artifact gloves currently lack that, often very good ones... but even if they did gain, say, my proposed additions to them, the simple fact is that you can't rely on the best gloves for your build to have procs you care about.
Admittedly, for example, the first glove I thought of for important ego(War-Making) does have a pretty universally useful proc. (In fact, it has it at too high of a rate, since the Cripple buff. That needs to be lower than 20%, more like 5-10%. I'd say that's more of an artifact of the buff to Cripple, though...that was pretty reasonable before.)
But other gloves? Regeneration? Second Wind is great to useless depending, and it's on gloves that boost your stamina regen...effectively, this is so unreliable as to be more regen. Battle Shout? Reproach? Randomized Perfect Strike? To say nothing of the bunch of breaths and spell effects?
They're nice, but the effects scatter in a lot of directions, and you mostly have War-Making for ones that really dominate the spectrum. I would say that's a statement on them having too strong of a proc right now.
Otherwise, yes, it's a great effect to have, and you get a lot of support and utility impacts, but it's really hard to say which you'll get. Will you use the first randart you find/get from the merchant? Would it actually have cost you damage from a pair of War-making? Or Dahktun's? Almost certainly. Utility for damage trade makes this much more of a sidegrade than you let on.
Except War-Making. Those need a worse proc or a lower rate on it. That's clear enough, looking at it, and that'll be true if Flexible Combat was removed tomorrow, to be honest. A free physical hit with a fairly good status on it needs to be less common than 20%.
If you're trying to make it worse early, stats alone won't do it. To be honest, the fact that you get less free choice of good gloves early has more impact than you are crediting it-optimal gloves are even less likely to have strong procs on them, and vice-versa.
As a final note, I notice the only time you've ever ran this is in the same situation I have-when it's optimal damage, namely with Arcane Might on a Reaver(The only time it's actually much good on a Reaver, in my opinion. In the interest of full disclosure, and so no one has to go look, I've ran it on a ridiculous Adventurer build for more Arcane Combat procs, and on a Brawler.).
And that was before it was nerfed. For all the Wyrmics you've recently ran-a good class for it, and with heavy physical builds yet-you never ran it.
Why not? If it's still too good now, and clearly overcentralizing, surely it was the only possible choice for a class that was good with it, back when it was 100%. Right?
It wasn't a total no-brainer before, when it was 100%.Flexible combat should be a sidegrade for non-brawlers, not a no brainer. At least in my opinion.
Too good, probably. But there were plenty of Rogue types and lower physical power classes in general that skipped it, and with good reason. It was not a relatively huge bonus to damage compared to, say, Lucky Day.
It's mostly useless for those types, now, which I'm okay with, since the target audience now no longer has it as what was, indeed, too obvious of a skill.
But it's not overly centralizing. Arcane Blade gets a huge amount out of it...and a lot of other Prodigies, they tend to love an amazing amount of them. Berserker, maybe, but Berserker has a lot of great AM build prodigies now(Spell Feedback, Superpower) as well. And those are the two best users of it.
It's admittedly hard to say for sure until we get feedback on the 60% version.
It's awful on rogue types, Berserkers only rarely build Cunning(It's not a bad build, per se, but no stats run off of it and their critical hit rate is excellent without it. AM will never build for it, and Con is a much more common build, since Berserker players tend to run along lines of trying to make the build as simple as possible.). Arcane Blades, yes, but see above. Wyrmics, yes, sorta. Mindstar builds, that's laughable, they have pitiful physical power.It would be good for brawlers, rogues, arcane blades, berserkers who boost cunning, marauders, wyrmics that boost cunning, any mindstar build.
Unreliable and unusual randomized procs on an unreliable to be used physical attack, eh?Direct GWF comparisons only matter for brawlers, because they are the ones that are going to care mostly about the damage. The rest are getting it for the effects.
Many artifact gloves currently lack that, often very good ones... but even if they did gain, say, my proposed additions to them, the simple fact is that you can't rely on the best gloves for your build to have procs you care about.
Admittedly, for example, the first glove I thought of for important ego(War-Making) does have a pretty universally useful proc. (In fact, it has it at too high of a rate, since the Cripple buff. That needs to be lower than 20%, more like 5-10%. I'd say that's more of an artifact of the buff to Cripple, though...that was pretty reasonable before.)
But other gloves? Regeneration? Second Wind is great to useless depending, and it's on gloves that boost your stamina regen...effectively, this is so unreliable as to be more regen. Battle Shout? Reproach? Randomized Perfect Strike? To say nothing of the bunch of breaths and spell effects?
They're nice, but the effects scatter in a lot of directions, and you mostly have War-Making for ones that really dominate the spectrum. I would say that's a statement on them having too strong of a proc right now.
Otherwise, yes, it's a great effect to have, and you get a lot of support and utility impacts, but it's really hard to say which you'll get. Will you use the first randart you find/get from the merchant? Would it actually have cost you damage from a pair of War-making? Or Dahktun's? Almost certainly. Utility for damage trade makes this much more of a sidegrade than you let on.
Except War-Making. Those need a worse proc or a lower rate on it. That's clear enough, looking at it, and that'll be true if Flexible Combat was removed tomorrow, to be honest. A free physical hit with a fairly good status on it needs to be less common than 20%.
For my money? Optimal stat build? Arcane Blade'll have 50%~ with your suggestion by 30 and so will Brawler. I consider Arcane Blade's primary stat to be Cunning, forever, since so much scales off of it, and Brawler I found optimal already to build Dex and Cunning and only so much Strength as I could get away with for equipment purposes-surprisingly little-until later in the game.I disagree. The idea is to introduce scaling so that you don't get 60% on level 30.
If you're trying to make it worse early, stats alone won't do it. To be honest, the fact that you get less free choice of good gloves early has more impact than you are crediting it-optimal gloves are even less likely to have strong procs on them, and vice-versa.
As a final note, I notice the only time you've ever ran this is in the same situation I have-when it's optimal damage, namely with Arcane Might on a Reaver(The only time it's actually much good on a Reaver, in my opinion. In the interest of full disclosure, and so no one has to go look, I've ran it on a ridiculous Adventurer build for more Arcane Combat procs, and on a Brawler.).
And that was before it was nerfed. For all the Wyrmics you've recently ran-a good class for it, and with heavy physical builds yet-you never ran it.
Why not? If it's still too good now, and clearly overcentralizing, surely it was the only possible choice for a class that was good with it, back when it was 100%. Right?
Re: Flexible Combat scaling
I didn't feel like arguing over unimportant stuff. Crafty hands require dex and a skill that also requires magic. What's your point?SageAcrin wrote:I note that you skipped out on the Strength thematics point. <_< It'd look extremely strange to have a Strength skill scale off of Cunning, of all things.
I wouldn't get it for the raw damage bonus on non-brawlers, unless I'm also running arcane might. There's also the +damage on hit which is pretty good on 'of sorrow' ego.It wasn't a total no-brainer before, when it was 100%.
Too good, probably. But there were plenty of Rogue types and lower physical power classes in general that skipped it, and with good reason. It was not a relatively huge bonus to damage compared to, say, Lucky Day.
You say that like AM is an obvious build on a berserker. I wouldn't say it is.But it's not overly centralizing. Arcane Blade gets a huge amount out of it...and a lot of other Prodigies, they tend to love an amazing amount of them. Berserker, maybe, but Berserker has a lot of great AM build prodigies now(Spell Feedback, Superpower) as well. And those are the two best users of it.
I ran a berserker with cunning. Your critical hit rate without it is good if you're going for dex and precise strikes. Either way works.It's awful on rogue types, Berserkers only rarely build Cunning(It's not a bad build, per se, but no stats run off of it and their critical hit rate is excellent without it. AM will never build for it, and Con is a much more common build, since Berserker players tend to run along lines of trying to make the build as simple as possible.). Arcane Blades, yes, but see above. Wyrmics, yes, sorta. Mindstar builds, that's laughable, they have pitiful physical power.
Why would it be awful on rogue types? I would get it on marauder every time. I'd also get it on a rogue for second wind, and solve most of my stamina problems.
And what mid or late game artifact gloves are so good anyway? I can only think of one pair, unless we're talking about caster gloves, which means any discussion about flexible combat is moot.Unreliable and unusual randomized procs on an unreliable to be used physical attack, eh?
Many artifact gloves currently lack that, often very good ones... but even if they did gain, say, my proposed additions to them, the simple fact is that you can't rely on the best gloves for your build to have procs you care about.
Second wind is hardly useless. Right now the only way to get it is an armor ego which adds a penalty to life. It's a powerful effect. 'Of sorrow' gauntlets (if I'm thinking of the right ones) add quite a nice bonus to damage, especially on dual wielding. War-making gloves are too good.Admittedly, for example, the first glove I thought of for important ego(War-Making) does have a pretty universally useful proc. (In fact, it has it at too high of a rate, since the Cripple buff. That needs to be lower than 20%, more like 5-10%. I'd say that's more of an artifact of the buff to Cripple, though...that was pretty reasonable before.)
But other gloves? Regeneration? Second Wind is great to useless depending, and it's on gloves that boost your stamina regen...effectively, this is so unreliable as to be more regen. Battle Shout? Reproach? Randomized Perfect Strike? To say nothing of the bunch of breaths and spell effects?
They're nice, but the effects scatter in a lot of directions, and you mostly have War-Making for ones that really dominate the spectrum. I would say that's a statement on them having too strong of a proc right now.
Since it's mostly useful on classes that have lots of damage and lack utility, I don't think that's really an important point.Otherwise, yes, it's a great effect to have, and you get a lot of support and utility impacts, but it's really hard to say which you'll get. Will you use the first randart you find/get from the merchant? Would it actually have cost you damage from a pair of War-making? Or Dahktun's? Almost certainly. Utility for damage trade makes this much more of a sidegrade than you let on.
You won't have 80-90 cunning by level 30, I don't think.For my money? Optimal stat build? Arcane Blade'll have 50%~ with your suggestion by 30 and so will Brawler. I consider Arcane Blade's primary stat to be Cunning, forever, since so much scales off of it, and Brawler I found optimal already to build Dex and Cunning and only so much Strength as I could get away with for equipment purposes-surprisingly little-until later in the game.
You can find good gloves early, I've had it happen quite enough times. By the time you get to choose the prodigy, you'll know if you have good gloves or not. So yet another unimportant point.If you're trying to make it worse early, stats alone won't do it. To be honest, the fact that you get less free choice of good gloves early has more impact than you are crediting it-optimal gloves are even less likely to have strong procs on them, and vice-versa.
You're going into ad hominem territory. The first wyrmic I ran, I went for legacy of the naloren and spell feedback because I never got them before and wanted to test them out. The second wyrmic I ran, flexible combat was broken on melee (and I wanted to test Superpower, which was new).And that was before it was nerfed. For all the Wyrmics you've recently ran-a good class for it, and with heavy physical builds yet-you never ran it.
Why not? If it's still too good now, and clearly overcentralizing, surely it was the only possible choice for a class that was good with it, back when it was 100%. Right?
If you have a suggestion how to make scaling work, I'd be happy to hear it. Otherwise, I'm not really interested in arguing with you.
<darkgod> all this fine balancing talk is boring
<darkgod> brb buffing boulder throwers
<darkgod> brb buffing boulder throwers
Re: Flexible Combat scaling
...I'm being accused of ad hominem... when I point out that you've never used the skill except when it's really good, and that I've never used the skill except when it's really good? I'm attacking you by saying you...have done the same thing I have? By saying neither one of us is necessarily apt yet to discuss this skill at all?
And that the skill's been nerfed since we both used it in a situation where it was very strong, therefore it might be best to wait for feedback from people besides us, or for one of us to try it on a weaker combination to see how well it works?
I don't like to drop out of conversations because of negative comments, let alone single ones, but I think I'm going to have to, with that. You've clearly got your own opinion on this one, maybe someone else you're less negative towards will discuss your points. My opinion is pretty much stated already, so.
And that the skill's been nerfed since we both used it in a situation where it was very strong, therefore it might be best to wait for feedback from people besides us, or for one of us to try it on a weaker combination to see how well it works?
I don't like to drop out of conversations because of negative comments, let alone single ones, but I think I'm going to have to, with that. You've clearly got your own opinion on this one, maybe someone else you're less negative towards will discuss your points. My opinion is pretty much stated already, so.
Re: Flexible Combat scaling
Heh, you two are fun to watch 
I hope neither of you have taken too much offense by the other, though, because even though this discussion is a bit heated, neither of you are completely off-base.
Anyway, I support a static percentage. If it's 30% at level 32 but 60% at level 50, then I would never get it as my first prodigy. Also, I just don't like the idea of prodigies scaling off a stat, because it lacks transparency for what to expect later on. A flat rate keeps it simple, easier to balance, and the player knows exactly what they're getting.
Is 60% too much for non-brawlers? Probably not, because they haven't invested in Unarmed Mastery, and it's no more overpowered than some other prodigies
I hope neither of you have taken too much offense by the other, though, because even though this discussion is a bit heated, neither of you are completely off-base.Anyway, I support a static percentage. If it's 30% at level 32 but 60% at level 50, then I would never get it as my first prodigy. Also, I just don't like the idea of prodigies scaling off a stat, because it lacks transparency for what to expect later on. A flat rate keeps it simple, easier to balance, and the player knows exactly what they're getting.
Is 60% too much for non-brawlers? Probably not, because they haven't invested in Unarmed Mastery, and it's no more overpowered than some other prodigies
darkgod wrote:OMFG tiger eye you are my hero!
Re: Flexible Combat scaling
I can't speak for anyone else, but I've been in way, way more heated arguments in my time, and those guys are still my friends. 
Just, I tend to drop out of discussions these days when they get like that. Usually, whatever point being made isn't worth it, to me.
'sides, by this point I'd probably be retreading. I think there's an opinion rift here, and really, more feedback's the only way the discussion can advance. Just back and forth like this won't help.
Just, I tend to drop out of discussions these days when they get like that. Usually, whatever point being made isn't worth it, to me.
'sides, by this point I'd probably be retreading. I think there's an opinion rift here, and really, more feedback's the only way the discussion can advance. Just back and forth like this won't help.
Re: Flexible Combat scaling
What I used on two of my wyrmics is no argument for anything. I don't always pick prodigies to be optimal. I have tested it on two cheated characters in the SVN before making that post. If you think more data is required, that's fine.SageAcrin wrote:...I'm being accused of ad hominem... when I point out that you've never used the skill except when it's really good, and that I've never used the skill except when it's really good? I'm attacking you by saying you...have done the same thing I have? By saying neither one of us is necessarily apt yet to discuss this skill at all?
I made a suggestion, and you were more interested in arguing than being constructive. I'm not the one being negative or hostile at all.I don't like to drop out of conversations because of negative comments, let alone single ones, but I think I'm going to have to, with that. You've clearly got your own opinion on this one, maybe someone else you're less negative towards will discuss your points. My opinion is pretty much stated already, so.
That said, feedback from more people is necessary if we're going to get a clear picture, so the whole thing was probably premature.
<darkgod> all this fine balancing talk is boring
<darkgod> brb buffing boulder throwers
<darkgod> brb buffing boulder throwers
Re: Flexible Combat scaling
In general, I feel that the offensive prodigies are rather weak compared to defensive/utility ones. That might be a personal preference thing, though.
I support the idea of Flexible Combat scaling, but mainly because that would make it a bit more useful in the ID. I certainly don't think that it needs a nerf.
I support the idea of Flexible Combat scaling, but mainly because that would make it a bit more useful in the ID. I certainly don't think that it needs a nerf.
Re: Flexible Combat scaling
There are some really strong offensive prodigies like mental tyranny which is close to a must have pick for some high mindpower classes.Parcae2 wrote:In general, I feel that the offensive prodigies are rather weak compared to defensive/utility ones. That might be a personal preference thing, though.
I support the idea of Flexible Combat scaling, but mainly because that would make it a bit more useful in the ID. I certainly don't think that it needs a nerf.
Flexible Combat was close to that with 100% chance but we will see how it is with 60%.
Anyway, I don't think that needs extra scaling as it already scales with your unarmed attack power and with your glove item.