ToME off of Wikipedia

[madmonk]

Can people have a look at the page now?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Tales_of_Maj%27Eyal

Been a lot of work done. Can we improve on it in any way?

[darkgod]

Looks better yeah

[Canderel]

Well, yeah... screenshots... link to the video.

But to make it more "notable"... or reliably sourced? I don't really have any clues.

Discuss mouse interface which is pretty amazing for a roguelike. Also perhaps mention shockbolt as the artist of the tiles etc.?

[darkgod]

Yeah taht too !

[R-F]

Just put it up as it is now. If they refuse, they're just trying to keep an article they deleted shut down and you'll have to take it to a Wiki Moderator.

[Mewtarthio]

The easiest way to get your Wikipedia account more permissions / rights is to delete "non-notable / undefended" articles on there.

Wait, seriously? And nobody thought that would be a bad idea?

[R-F]

The easiest way to get your Wikipedia account more permissions / rights is to delete "non-notable / undefended" articles on there.

Wait, seriously? And nobody thought that would be a bad idea?

Seriously, there was a shitstorm about it last year, but it's hard to find any sources on it since any time you Google "Wikipedia Criticism" or ANYTHING, it'll just take you to Wikipedia.

Couldn't find the MUD one, but here's a series about Old Man Murray, in which RPS is called non-notable, despite the fact they're probably the leading PC-only games site.

[Grey]

Well, simple fact is Wikipedia isn't meant to be a repository for all knowledge, and they want to keep the site relatively clean of nonsense crap, which means coming down hard on some things that a few minor people consider very important. ToME would never get an entry in the Encyclopedia Brittanica. There are many many better known games that don't have a Wikipedia entry. This may just be a losing battle.

More important in my perspective is to get it on gaming sites and wikis that people actually use to discover new games.

[darkgod]

I agree it's good to get on other medias but there is *no* reason to not have tome on wikipedia.
Adom is there along with lots of small games. They have pages on the littlest topics imaginable ..

[madmonk]

Can someone press the submit button, please?

I don't have an account.

[lukep]

Submitted again, and IMO, it is notable, meaning it should be on Wikipedia. The specific article is lacking references though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia: ... structions says the "notability" check comes before verifiability, and it is failing on the next step, so that is not the problem.

[leycec]

Well, simple fact is Wikipedia isn't meant to be a repository for all knowledge...

As a wiki researcher, I'm afraid this is grossly incorrect. Wikipedia is intended to factually document all verifiable knowledge, a lofty goal it once accomplished pretty well. That's what an encyclopedia is, after all. Courtesy Princeton's Wordnet: "encyclopedia (n): a reference work containing articles on various topics dealing with the entire range of human knowledge."

But don't take it from me. After all, I'm merely a researcher. Straight from the horse's mouth: "We want Wikipedia to be around at least a hundred years from now, if it does not turn into something even more significant. Everything about Wikipedia is engineered towards that end.. We want you to imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge."

... and they want to keep the site relatively clean of nonsense crap...

Again, this is factually incorrect. Wikipedia is opinion-agnostic; ideally, subjective opinions of what constitutes "nonsense crap" have no bearing. No one editor (or cabal of editors) gets to decide what constitutes "nonsense crap," which is good. Neither of us have probably heard of Qubit Field Theory, but that makes it no less factually verifiable. Hence, obscurity is not grounds for deletion. (See also the well-written essays Overzealous deletion and Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions.)

So. What does have bearing? Notability, one of the four pillars of Wikipedia policy. So. What's notability? Topics that have "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." Clearly, ToME4 more than meets such simplistic criteria.

... which means coming down hard on some things that a few minor people consider very important.

Again, this is factually incorrect. I demonstrate why by way of a counter-example: asteroids.

Asteroids are awesome, right? Yes, but consider this: for every asteroid discovered in our Solar System, Wikipedia contains a corresponding article. That's over 18,000 articles, most of which don't have proper article titles. Why? Because most asteroids are so insignificant that we haven't even assigned them names – just unique alphanumeric identifiers.

Does anyone believe asteroid (9920) 1981 EZ10 to be "very important" or even "slightly kind-of maybe sort-of important"? No, probably not. That's why we haven't assigned it a name. But that doesn't matter. The asteroid's existence is factually verifiable via unbiased external sources and hence an appropriate topic for a Wikipedia article.

ToME would never get an entry in the Encyclopedia Brittanica.

Yes. Because Encyclopedia Britannica was demonstrably terrible. Deficiencies in one encyclopedia in no way justify similar deficiencies in other encyclopedias.

There are many many better known games that don't have a Wikipedia entry.

Such as? Any verifiable knowledge Wikipedia currently lacks is a bug, not a feature, and should be fixed. Which is exactly what lukep, et al. are graciously doing. Praise be to them, for they venerate wisdom!

[madmonk]

Declined again...

AFC-Logo Decline.svg
Submission declined on 10 January 2013 by Ktr101 (talk).
This submission's references do not adequately evidence the subject's notability—see the general guideline on notability and the golden rule. Please improve the submission's referencing, so that the information is verifiable, and there is clear evidence of why the subject is notable and worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia.
What you can do: Add citations (see Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners) to secondary reliable sources that are entirely independent of the subject.
Declined by Ktr101 2 seconds ago. Last edited by Ktr101 1 second ago. Reviewer: Inform author.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I don't see that PC gamer source DG mentioned put there in the article. Being a website for a dead tree magazine, it might carry a bit more weight.

By the way, this is part of the reason why I favor the vastly different themes TV Tropes website for information on things like internet based stuff. They don't have notability rules.

[Hachem_Muche]

Wow! This is moving pretty fast, even if getting the submission approved is a bit slow. I agree that it would be very good to get an article on ToME. A suggestion:

The current draft reads a bit too much like a sales-pitch (even though that's part of the objective). Think less like a salesman and more like a reporter. Put everything into third person; there should be no you's or I's in the main body of the article. Consider rewriting

Gameplay

Tales of Maj'Eyal is a dungeon crawl game featuring tactical turn-based combat and advanced character building. Play as one of many unique races and classes in the lore-filled world of Eyal, exploring random dungeons, facing challenging battles, and developing characters with your own tailored mix of abilities and powers. With a modern graphical and customisable interface, intuitive mouse control, streamlined mechanics and deep, challenging combat, Tales of Maj’Eyal offers engaging roguelike gameplay.

The continent of Maj’Eyal lives in relative peace. After millennia of war the orcs are extinct, the advanced races have allied together, and the evils of magic have been repressed. But there are still untamed forests, cursed lands, marauding bandits, sealed dungeons of undead, and whispers have spread of hidden cults. Some even say the orcs are not all dead, and muster their strength in dark places.

You are an adventurer, seeking your fortune in the open world, investigating ruins and mysteries in search of riches and powers[3]. Explore a continent still scarred by the terrible Spellblaze from ages past, teeming with wild beasts, monsters, trolls and giants. Delve through dark dungeons infested by armies of undead, demonic monstrosities and hideous horrors. Uncover world changing secrets, from relics of the ancient and all-powerful Sher’Tul race to veiled cities of magic and concealed psionic beings. Fight with skill and care against undying necromancers, towering dragons, primeval forces, arcane demons and world-threatening powers.

to

Gameplay

Tales of Maj'Eyal (ToME) is a module running on the concurrently developed T-engine4 framework. It features a contemporary, customizable graphical interface that seamlessly integrates classic rogue-like keyboard commands with mouse driven controls. In a departure from many older rogue-like games, ToME has almost completely iconified, full-color graphics, and can be played almost exclusively with the mouse.

ToME is a dungeon crawl game emphasizing tactically engaging, turn-based combat and highly flexible player-controlled character development. Game play depends heavily on player decisions, ability to develop and execute strategy, and a flexible plot in order to maximize re-playability. Play begins with the player selecting one of nine or more races and one of 21 or more specific classes (expandable with addons) in order to explore Eyal, a lore-filled world containing numerous dungeons and dozens of different types adversaries (all randomly generated to varying degrees, and many completely unique to each game) within an epic story arc. The plot is non-linear, and success depends as much on character planning and storyline choices as it does on the player's skill in defeating enemies within a deep and complex combat system.

Not all character and class choices are available at first, but must be unlocked via in-game quests or character progress in various areas of the game. This helps new players, which may be overwhelmed by the number of character development options the game has. Many character abilities ("talents") are determined by the player's race and class choices, but others can be randomly obtained via quests or equipment within the game. Character development within ToME depends mostly on player choices, and there are too many options to pursue during one game session.

Game Lore
The continent of Maj’Eyal lives in relative peace. Once ravaged by armies of orcs, the advanced races allied together, and, after millennia of war, eventually drove the orcs from the land and pursued them to extinction. The stories of the Spellblaze, a magical cataclysm, have faded into myth in the minds of many, but magic itself is still widely mistrusted and is actively repressed in many areas.

As an adventurer, the player begins the game seeking fortune in the open world, investigating ruins and mysteries in search of riches and powers[3]. Even in this time of peace, there are still untamed forests, cursed lands, marauding bandits, and other untold horrors in secluded parts of the world. Recently, rumors of hidden cults have begun to spread, and some even say the orcs are not really all dead, but are mustering their strength in dark places. Maj'Eyal still bears the ages-old scars from the terrible Spellblaze, but the land is now teeming with wild beasts, monsters, trolls and giants. These adversaries must be sought out and defeated to gain experience, power, and knowledge of the truth behind the circulating rumors. Eventually, the player must explore dark dungeons infested by armies of undead, demonic monstrosities and hideous horrors in order to uncover world changing secrets and reveal an epic story arc, while discovering along the way relics of an ancient and all-powerful race called the Sher'Tul, veiled cities of magic, concealed psionic beings, undying necromancers, towering dragons, primeval forces, arcane demons and more. Battles become progressively more complex, the consequences more dire, and the player's choices of race, class and skills are tested against world-threatening powers.