Some feedback from an angband dev

[supermini]

When I first went East, I was able to take one look at the first rooms of the Prides and decide to put them off until later. I think we should leave the players some room to figure things out on their own. ToME is already a fairly transparent game, and by the time a player makes it past Dreadfell, it's safe to assume they know how it works.

Oh I agree in principle. In practice, people ask on the channel "I made it east, where do I go?", and they are given the answer more or less like the one I gave in the above post.

[Frumple]

Yeah, pretty much. I generally just respond to that question with, "Back west." I like the dead-pan sort of zing to it, y'know? And that's generally exactly what I do. Maybe nab the underwater cave if it shows up on the way to th'armory or briagh.

... I actually remember the first time I went east, now. Maybe. I think the only thing over there at the time, besides the town, was the spider lair

Spiders... spiders never change.

[darkgod]

I can smell a fallout reference !

[SageAcrin]

The first time I went East, I got confused about what I was supposed to do, and ended up charging into Rak'shor.

I won. For a given definition of won that left me on last life-I got mopped up by a patrol after.

Still pretty good, even if it was an Alchemist.

[overgoat]

I think it might be nice if there was some kind of warning before entering the prides. My first few times in the East I felt my characters were badassed enough to take on anything until meeting a quick demise each time to the prides. I eventually learned to avoid these until much later.

[fizzix]

Well, I managed to kill all four prides without heading back west. I thought I needed to do that to go west!

[eliotn]

I think it might be nice if there was some kind of warning before entering the prides. My first few times in the East I felt my characters were badassed enough to take on anything until meeting a quick demise each time to the prides. I eventually learned to avoid these until much later.

Agreed, the first two times I went east I had no idea what to do and promptly died to entering each pride at the wrong time.

[belmarduk]

If you guys talk to all the NPCs in sunwall it's pretty obvious what you're supposed to do. I got the order right without ever asking anybody!

re: to all this, I think it's nice to hear something from the developer of another successful roguelike but all the things that are different from angband about ToME is what makes me like ToME and not Angband.

[Sradac]

regarding the difficulty of places not being equal and not obvious, thats a good thing and it probably should not change.

This is a roguelike afterall and not carebear land. Players need to learn SOME things on their own.

That'd be like if you played ADOM and went to enter the ToEF the game stopped you and said "Hey! You dont have fire resistance! Come back when you have some or else you will die!". No, I had to figure it out for myself. First time I entered I immediately went "Oh shit, oh shit, oh shit." and ran far, far away.

Same thing with Angband. You dont go below X depth without X resistance, you dont leave town without a ?oWoR, after cLvlX you dont leave without !oGH. These are things you learn as you play, and those make the experience that much better. Not only am I progressing my character but also myself as a person, I can make better judgement calls based on past experiences.

"Hmm...an Intimidating Cave random dungeon.....Well, that Damp Cave wasnt that hard. But then again that Rat Lich was a pain. Wonder if I should go in? Eh, the hell with it I can always retreat" *descends* "OK! Time to retreat!"

[Mewtarthio]

I'm with Sradac here. ToME gives you a lot of escape options. By the time you make it to the East, you should really know how to use them, as well as how to tell when you're out of your depth. The Prides are particularly polite in that they give you a fair sample of how screwed you are before you've even left the entrance. When your first view of a zone is six spellcasters and a randboss all glaring at you in a small room with no cover, that's a sign that you should do some serious risk analysis before stepping off that staircase.

Besides, the game does direct you back west. The "There And Back Again" quest starts in the Sunwall, which is the first place you're directed to, the only friendly location in the East, and a location that you have to visit before the orc prides even show up on the map. The questgiver is located inside one of those clearly marked "talkative NPC within" doors (no shop sign and a chain, just like the alchemists, Last Hope elders, etc), and an obviously-important level 50 glowing NPC will point it out to you if you talk to her.

Now, it's perfectly understandable if you assume the west portal quest and the orc pride quest are on the same "tier," so to speak. It's just that the orc prides are so obviously deadly right from the first room that I'm a little suprised you wouldn't consider checking out that other quest first.

[Dwindlehop]

My problem was I did not know that there would be anything for me to kill once I got back to the west. I assumed I had kind of out-leveled that zone, so to speak.

[ohioastro]

The fact that experienced roguelike players are giving this feedback suggests that it isn't obvious, and I'd therefore give it some weight. Basically, some equivalent of adding text to the Paladin that amounts to "take these on if you're really boss." Preferably the one in the cave when you first go east. And it would be nice if one of the lesser quests had a hook to the guardians in the west.

[belmarduk]

The fact that experienced roguelike players are giving this feedback suggests that it isn't obvious, and I'd therefore give it some weight. Basically, some equivalent of adding text to the Paladin that amounts to "take these on if you're really boss." Preferably the one in the cave when you first go east. And it would be nice if one of the lesser quests had a hook to the guardians in the west.

If you claim to be an experienced roguelike player and you can't figure out what dungeon to go to in the east or whether or not the intimidating cave is going to be safe, then I am going to question the source of your experience. Nethack and DCSS with the wiki open?

1. NPCs in the east tell you where to go. The paladin mentions the breeding pits, the NPC by the weapon shop mentions the spider cave. Zemekkys sends you to Vor Armory. All these dungeons are very close to where you start, obvious in placement.
2. You get a notification as soon as you enter the prides telling you you're too low level to be there (heart races, etc)
3. Every pride has a horrifying entry room full of casters/enemies that should be an obvious tip that you shouldn't be there

this is like entering the big room in nethack, or landing in one of the really dangerous vaults in DCSS. You should know before your life is ever in danger that you're in a place you shouldn't be, turn around, and leave the branch. Unlike DCSS, you don't even get locked out of returning. There is no penalty (besides the floor sweep, and by that point it's irrelevant) for leaving a dungeon and coming back later.

If the game pops up a window saying HERE'S WHAT TO DO there's no point in the non-linear gameplay that Darkgod has created in the first place. If players wanted to play angband, a straight forward HIT DOWN ARROW TO HAVE INCREMENTAL INCREASE IN POWER FOR ENEMIES game, that's what they would be playing. Having a game where players can tackle tough challenges and learn from their mistakes is part of the appeal of ToME.

It's also why we have lives, which, last I checked, was not something that Angband had. Hell, even if you DO stumble into a pride, when you get insta-gibbed, you can opt to get resurrected on the world map!

The steps that ToME has taken away from it's contemporaries is part of what makes ToME so great. If the game suddenly regressed to the garbage that is Angband, I simply wouldn't play it anymore. There's a reason I'm a ToME player.

My problem was I did not know that there would be anything for me to kill once I got back to the west. I assumed I had kind of out-leveled that zone, so to speak.

I do agree that the backup guardians could stand to be much more obvious, but I believe some NPCs in last hope might mention it when you get back to the west. It is made pretty clear that returning west is a major quest objective, though...

[5k17]

1. NPCs in the east tell you where to go. The paladin mentions the breeding pits, the NPC by the weapon shop mentions the spider cave. Zemekkys sends you to Vor Armory. All these dungeons are very close to where you start, obvious in placement.

Aeryn also tells you you have to do the Prides, and does not indicate that you should wait with them. And some of those other dungeons are not at all closer to Gates of Morning than the Prides. It's not too far-fetched to assume that the Prides are about as difficult as the other dungeons.

2. You get a notification as soon as you enter the prides telling you you're too low level to be there (heart races, etc)

For most Prides, level 35 is enough; one even starts scaling at level 30. That's no higher than the other dungeons in the Far East.

3. Every pride has a horrifying entry room full of casters/enemies that should be an obvious tip that you shouldn't be there

No, it's just an obvious tip that it will to be dangerous. If you're a sufficient level, there's no reason to assume you can't/shouldn't do it.

[supermini]

Aeryn also tells you you have to do the Prides, and does not indicate that you should wait with them. And some of those other dungeons are not at all closer to Gates of Morning than the Prides. It's not too far-fetched to assume that the Prides are about as difficult as the other dungeons.

Yes, and? Your assumption was wrong, you entered the pride, you saw what was there, you chose to stay and you died. If that happens that's your own fault.

3. Every pride has a horrifying entry room full of casters/enemies that should be an obvious tip that you shouldn't be there

No, it's just an obvious tip that it will to be dangerous. If you're a sufficient level, there's no reason to assume you can't/shouldn't do it.

If you don't know the limits of what your character can and can't handle, that's again, your own fault, and death is a good learning experience.