This sort of thing makes the game unbalanced...

[bricks]

Trollmire 4 aka Bill's Lair isn't technically part of Trollmire or its OoD protection. That said, it's a little strange that something much tougher than Bill can spawn.

Rethinking the original post - perhaps starting zones shouldn't have vaults? I'd rather not render down those areas to the point of unthinking rout play, but among starting zones vaults aren't particularly common or well distributed, and they seem to strongly encourage "wait until I'm strong enough to steamroll it" gameplay. (Honestly, if I could find a way to swing it, I'd argue that all vaults should only be available the first time you enter a level.) At low levels, sometimes running away isn't even an option. By 10+ most classes can or will pick up something to help with escape/repositioning.

[Frumple]

Maybe more specifically built vaults for the early game, or possibly just more period so the distribution is a bit more even. There's only one potentially really nasty vault that can show up in the tier one stuff, iirc; specifically, the one than came up in the OP, the circle vault. The rest of them are fairly tame -- skellie mage U vault and outside one, the small armored skellie one with the traps, and that circle vault that likes to spew out stuff like ghoulkings and elven cultists, the snakes and inscriptions that very rarely shows up in trollmire. Then a few more open ones besides the skeleton mage one. The circle vault and the snake one are particularly dangerous, from what I've seen... most of the rest can be easily kited away from, though a small movement speed (or general speed) penalty on armored skeletons might be in order, at least early on. The four mage vault occasionally gets yeh, but that one's generally quite doable once you're used to how to react (i.e. don't just stand there and bang unless you know you're able to; they'll happily gib each other to gib you).

[SageAcrin]

The weird thing about the OoD in Trollmire is that the one spot is, I think, the only non-fixed encounter you can get there.

So getting a Thunderer or Patchwork is quite a low odds shot. I guess it's for random OoD joke value, and I'd actually like it if Patchworks don't start at such insanely high levels for that point(I've...I forget if it was killed or escaped from a Thunderer there. The Patchwork destroyed me though.).

Maybe Patchworks should have a higher base level(so that they're less likely to show up, since they're already mostly instant death if they do) or a lower one and more scaling(so they can be reasonably fought off if you draw one there)?

[Frumple]

The specific place you're talking about in trollmire is... not really part of trollmire, and a potentially nasty OoD monster is almost, hum. Desired, really. The thing is supposed to be "babby's first vault" basically -- or rather, your actual introduction to the fact that those bloody doors aren't exactly lying and that when popups warn you something may kill you, you might actually want to listen. Bill himself isn't really that big of a deal, but his entourage occasionally brings surprises.

Patchwork's admittedly up there, but the encounter doesn't have a level cap (it'll happily scale with you right into the late game; level 40 bill is amusing) so that's kinda' how things can go.

What would be nice, I think, is a way to insta-leave bill's little area, possibly closing it behind you forever. A panic button of some sort, or alternately make the thing like the immediate post-dreadfell event. If something eats you, instead of dying you get kicked out to derth, lose, say, half your gold, and future access to bill's area is blocked. Another possibility would be to lock it down until you've been 'there and back again' if you died to it the first go and have some sort of special improvement to the place if it killed you before hand (perhaps on top of a general 2nd west change, actally). Something equivalent to a somewhat toned down room of death, perhaps. If you were going the general direction of that latter bit, one or two assured OoD monsters (trolls/wolves/worms, perhaps) might be appropriate.

[Zonk]

I think the issue with a patchwork troll spawning is that it will be a much tougher fight than Bill. Who's that level boss. So it...doesn't really make sense.
If you STILL want RNG screwage potential for players there, replace that potentially OOD troll with a 'normal'one, but classed. That would make more sense - one of Bill's friends picking up some tricks-while still keeping Bill the main challenge.

[Covenant]

But if you're not willing to give me any idea of what your experience is, it becomes impossible to have a meaningful conversation.

Why? Surely an opinion or idea stands apart from the person who has it?

Sorry. I really hate to put it like this

I doubt that very much, you've trotted your record out at every opportunity you can.

but my record on ToME is findable with a quick search-look for winners since b36, you'll find a dozen. You can think I faked them, and that I care about both games a lot-strongly, in both directions-without having gotten anywhere-I don't know why you'd think that, but maybe I'm just someone who likes Roguelikes without getting anywhere in them and am a liar/cheater...fair enough, you don't know me. You can find my Dreadmor clear on Steam, but that can be cheated too...so, fair enough. I am not saying you have to respect my experience, or even think it exists.

You seem to believe your wins prove that your opinion is correct? As if I could say that because I've won a dozen games of Rogue using only my left hand, that's the optimal way to play, and my wins are testament to that. Ridiculous.

Without you willing to meet me halfway on that knowledge, I can't usefully converse with you.

You may have some good points(I have granted several!)

Kind as that is of you, perhaps we could more usefully converse if you took the time to actually read my posts. You say I haven't confirmed I've won either game; you're mistaken. I don't need to use my wins as a tool to prove my point, however, so I don't seek to emphasise them.

I don't want to make paragraph-long posts describing situations to you every single situation that you may or may not have seen so that you get where I'm coming from, like I did detailing that situation in Zot. Too much work, and you have too many opinions.

Then let's agree to disagree - I won't continue this any further. By all means stick with your original opinion. Similarly, I'm sticking with mine; you are rude, arrogant, and thoroughly mistaken.

[tiger_eye]

...as if I could say that because I've won [..] [with a] Rogue using only my left hand

Challenge accepted! (will wait until v1 though)

[Canderel]

Tiger_that For the record, that's off hand only. I guess traps would count.

Anyway, i didn't read most of the thread, but for whoever complained that they have to get that 2nd slot... there is no shame in using addons like all categories unlocked, half damage etc.

I found on rogues it's pretty cool, and surely will be seriously overpowered with a mage, but you'll find yourself with more options but spread thinner.

But the ranged stuff not hitting twice (!) & confusion nerf will balance the game out quite a bit.

[Stormlock]

For what it's worth, my 2 cents on the matter are that both games have a fair amount of unfair deathtraps. ToME2 was pretty safe if you knew your way around, mostly due to guaranteed artifacts and plentiful teleportation options. The vast majority of my deaths in that game arose from me leaning into a pack of goblins/orcs/trolls that should have been cake and stepping on a hunger trap or something equally silly. Nethack was also pretty safe- between Elbereth, a bag full of wands and price IDing, theres very little that can kill you without warning past the first few levels, assuming you're spoiled or experienced.

Crawl is perfectly happy to ram grinder down your throat (and lategame is just absurd, I only won thanks to Nemelex being totally balanced if you don't realize you can carry more than 1 deck.), and ToME 4 has no qualms about making you blind, stunned and illuminated in a single turn, then having your wild infusion remove the illumination part. Never mind the joys of being confused, then frozen, then hit with impending doom. Hope you have 3 wild infusions. Even assuming it's something incredibly easy like a single stun initially, your margin for error and bad luck is often razor thin. The initial hit probably brought you to half hp or so. Your heals are on cooldown. So is your teleport. Movement is blocked or suicidal (running away in daikara for example, or anywhere with mages while at low hp.) Now you have to pop wild to cure the stun- grats, now you still have to survive one more turn to get teleport off cooldown. Hope you have a shielding rune (and a 4th slot for healing, since your 3rd is the teleport), and hope your enemy doesn't get a crit, or stun you again, or freeze you. Hopefully you've actually found the needed items- 60 point shields aren't going to cut it later on. Hopefully you weren't slowed even slightly by slime or anything of the sort, since then the enemy might get a double turn and kill you. Hopefully when you teleport you end up somewhere safe instead of on top of another rare or just anything with a burst damage ability or more status effects. Remember to check the properties of every piece of equipment you ever put on in case one is arcane disrupting and fizzles the teleport.

But that isn't even the real problem, which is more often something just being absurdly wildly out of depth. Running into spellcasters 20 levels above you that turn your berserker into ashes with a single spell. Trying out the graveyard the first time? Waited till level 28 just to be safe? Hope you like level 50 elder vampire solpsists!

[jenx]

I think the responses to my op prove my point. The game has unbalanced elements that are just simply too unbalanced. Fix these and the game will be better still.

[HousePet]

I don't mind the OoD, but with that creature limited to being at least level 38, that was 30 levels OoD.

And that doesn't look clear... The creature was fine, but as it had a minimum level of 38, I'm wondering if the minimum level is causing some issues. As it was double OoD from being a higher teir enemy and then having its level bumped up to 38. In the case of OoD monsters, perhaps the minimum level should not be enforced? Or roll an average between what level the area is and the minimum level.

Also, it wasn't worth much xp. Bill was easier and worth more xp, even though I was higher level than Bill.

[daftigod]

Just throwing this out there, but I showed this game to my dad last week. He's recovering from his second knee replacement in three months, and needed something better than tv and iphone games to pass the time.

I showed him the basics and gave him a quick walk through trollmire with a berserker. He seemed really into it at first, asked alot of questions, and wanted to know more. I got him past prox, and then dared him to go on by himself to the next area (bill).

And a lvl 38 patchwork troll rushed him and instagibbed him before he could make 15 moves. He just quietly shut the game down and hasn't touched it since. This is a shame because I could tell he liked what he saw at first. Just wasn't willing to put up with something that far out of his control.

Moral of the story is... Don't kill a player's fun before he can realize what's fun in the first place!

[SageAcrin]

I can't really argue that ToME4 is not perfectly balanced. In my opinion, it isn't.

The best defense of this I can say is that, in order to make something challenging and random at once(Both of which have value-if you consistently win every time with the same sheaf of spoilers, there's no replay challenge and, arguably, not much there to start with, for the spoiled. Randomization has a use in challenging gameplay.), it is extremely hard to avoid some deaths that were hard, if not impossible, to control.

Basically ToME, as I see it, has two ways it could go on this.

Either assume Adventurer as the default, make this clear to players, and allow for those deaths, or attempt rigorous pruning of the specific situations that produce the most complaints, often in rather brutally simple ways. The latter often is going to have some thematic issues, but it's the most satisfying for players, since many players like Roguelike difficulty just as a matter of course.

(A good example of the latter taking place is the level caps and ability limits on Rares, for instance.)

Otherwise, basically this topic will be repeated infinitely. It doesn't necessarily matter if there's a reason for the deaths...people just don't like 'em.

Edit:

Similarly, I'm sticking with mine; you are rude, arrogant, and thoroughly mistaken.

I think you're misunderstanding something.

Without a frame of reference of anything you actually know, I'm not bothering to share anything I know, because it would take too much time. I would rather spend it doing fun things. But, I do feel I owe you a bit of an apology, and to try-one last time-to really get across where I'm coming from here.

My attitude towards Crawl is simple-I have seen it become a mass of cuts instead of being polished meaningfully. You say there's been less cuts than additions-that's actually, basically, not true. Not meaningful ones, as opposed to balance tweaks(usually against the player, also usually basically minor enough to be unnoticable. It's like watching the balance of Crawl die a death of a thousand cuts.). They simply have cut classes, races and spells since 0.9, without similar additions-go look, you'll find Appendage, and Cleave, and...

But...it was a digression, and I shouldn't get off on that.

You just hit a bit of a nerve-that realization is why I'm here, on this forum, and why I've been making so many suggestions for ToME. DarkGod is receptive to ideas-I watched my friends similarly try to help with Crawl(I decided from lurking forums it was hopeless), only to get mocked and blown off. I want to help make a game better, and I don't want to see a game suffer from having too little feedback. Having ToME's positive impacts compared to Crawl's be blown off was not something I enjoyed seeing.

(Though, to be clear, again-they're different styles of Roguelike. Which makes comparing them even weirder...)

I disagree strongly with your opinion, and it conflicts strongly with my experience with both games. Something you kinda deflect by acting like I'm a bad guy-not entirely without justification, your attitude annoys me, granted. Granted, I also haven't directly insulted you, and you have directly insulted me...but, neither here nor there, I've given you reason enough with my tone. Fair enough.

But simply put, I have no idea how good you are, outside of the impression given from your statements(Which is not positive), and you won't give me a frame of reference, and I'm not explaining the entire game to you. That simple. Your opinion is something I have judged separately...and without the ability to ask "How do you live through X with that mentality?", because I don't know if you have even done so, I can't converse on it.

To give you an idea, I respect tiger_eye. He's done some crazy things, and I know it-not because he has them in the vault, but because he makes his strategies make sense when I talk to him. The builds, no, those are totally crazy. But how he handles them is completely believable based on my experience.

You aren't believable for many situations I've faced in both games. Your attitudes, your beliefs, etc, don't strike me as something that can remotely consistently clear-if at all. That simple. The fact that you hilariously won't share your record as a point of some kind is icing.

You can believe me or not on the clears-but I wonder if anyone here even knew before I mentioned it in conversing with you? I really don't bring them up much. I am proud of them, yes...but why the heck shouldn't I be? They aren't optimal, though, and I'd respect someone with real Roguelike clears looking down on even 0-death Adventure runs-as they should, it is a different experience. It isn't about bragging. It is about showing you that I have backed my opinion up with not dying more than a few times. You won't do the same.

And games shouldn't be designed on the opinions of people who may be mistaken about how the game actually functions.

And challenge-oriented gameplay shouldn't be designed based on the newbie, without the knowledge that they *are* the newbie-without trying to explain to them the things they're missing, and designing the game to explain those things as well, rather than simply removing the difficulty that could have been otherwise handled with strategic skill.

It's a fine line between this and being totally newbie unfriendly-and ToME's trying to straddle that line. No, it's not easy, and I don't think it's perfectly succeeded...but it's sure as heck not done yet, now is it? I really like that ToME is trying to be friendly to newbies, while still being a strongly challenge-oriented experience. Few games have really tried, and it's a shame, in my opinion.

tl;dr-I like ToME, a lot. And I don't know where to start defending it if you attack it in vague, nebulous terms, without any specifics in many cases, and without any idea how far you've gotten or how good you are. That simple.

I apologize again for offending you. But I also really don't care what you think of me(Though, I do feel I owe an explanation, at least.). I'm here for the game.

[omni]

Daftigod man, why would you dare him to go into bills lair immediately after prox?

I mean you specifically know he isn't ready for it, hence the dare, and yet you felt the need to challenge him to do it.

That's just cruel man.

(this is the kindest tone I could think of, considering the circumstances, to say "don't kill a player's fun before he can realize what's fun to begin with" may not wholly be the monster generator's fault in that case)

[Grey]

What new player doesn't check out Bill?

Some people don't really cope well with permadeath in general though, which I suspect is the case here.