This sort of thing makes the game unbalanced...

[Frumple]

... maybe rename the difficulty levels again, if t4 does hit steam? I mean... easier is bloody cake. If you were looking to give new folks a walk through the daisies that'd be a pretty simple way to do it.

[tiger_eye]

There are several tweaks and bugfixes to improve the balance of the game next beta, including but not limited to:

• no more double-hitting projectiles
  Solipsist nerf
  "advanced" class rares are more rare (such as solipsist, necromancer, etc.)
  Confusion nerf
  Was stun changed/nerfed too?
  no more OOD enemies in gold pits in tier one zones

and certainly more that I'm forgetting. So, yes, balance, the difficulty curve, and fairness matter a lot, and each beta is a little different. Hopefully b43 (and v1 when it comes) will be better.

[Grey]

Stun is nerfed to not affect healing next version.

And between the next version and v1 will be the big balance and bugfix push, so hopefully there'll be a lot more polish on that front and consideration of how appropriate the difficulty settings are.

Also, the "welcome to roguelikes" justification is not valid and a terrible way to address real game balance concerns. One of the defining features of ToME4 is its rejection of traditions that are bad for fun. DarkGod has done a great job at not blindly copying traditions and being adventurous with radically different features. ToME4 is very much its own game, irrespective of previous ToMEs and unique in the whole genre.

[SageAcrin]

Yeah, if ToME were going to launch commercially, I'd seriously suggest someone make an easier mode and call the two modes something like Mild and Tough.

Standard Roguelike difficulty is a tradition-and one really loved by its niche(which I am unashamedly part of, I just hate the low polish Roguelikes.). It's part of their thing.

I know that can easily be a trap used to justify any difficult thing, but there's a fine line between things people had an option they don't see to get out of, and things that they couldn't reasonably be expected to have that option for. Very fine indeed.

I'd kinda like to see more difficulty settings for ToME in general, it's something I might try to code suggestions for down the line...

[ohioastro]

Stun is nerfed to not affect healing next version.

And between the next version and v1 will be the big balance and bugfix push, so hopefully there'll be a lot more polish on that front and consideration of how appropriate the difficulty settings are.

Also, the "welcome to roguelikes" justification is not valid and a terrible way to address real game balance concerns. One of the defining features of ToME4 is its rejection of traditions that are bad for fun. DarkGod has done a great job at not blindly copying traditions and being adventurous with radically different features. ToME4 is very much its own game, irrespective of previous ToMEs and unique in the whole genre.

I like the sound of the balance changes. Absolutely agree on your last point - there have been a lot of really nice additions to the game while I've been watching it. The classes are different and very fun; there is more variety in the tools and the experience. It's better than a lot of commercial games in a lot of ways. If you've played enough you also notice versions where new additions change the experience, sometimes in ways that are harsh. And I think that "arbitrary death" is one of the things that DG wanted to get away from.

I actually think that introducing different things at different difficulty levels is a good way to add spice for vets while still making the game tractable for new folks. It also adds replay value, actually, to have things like random elites kick in if you crank up the danger level.

[jenx]

These changes sound great - how long to wait?

Don't get me wrong, I love this game, and keep playing it (too much in fact). I think fixing rares is the highest priority for b43, and it sounds like that is happening.

[Covenant]

I'm looking forward to the balance changes as well, but I hope it goes the right way.

I don't think many of us here object to difficulty. It's a roguelike, after all - difficulty is part of the attraction - but I dislike ToME's particular brand of difficulty. Rather than anything feeling strategic or intuitive, it feels like a bad combination of two things.

1) Nethack's level of 'spoiler-required' (for example, there are many opportunities in ToME where you're given quests or can access areas and have no real idea of what to expect. Then you attempt them and die because it turns out they're meant for someone 20 levels above you, or because it's an encounter where you have to know the trick, and you don't know it yet. The graveyard/crypt springs to mind, as does the demon possession thing). Similarly, knowledge of various enemy abilities, where/when certain enemies appear, knowing that a certain enemy (say an archer) will occasionally be generated with a bow that will let him do 5x his normal damage, etc, is all too required. I like the kind of difficulty that relies me to above all know my OWN capabilities rather than those of the enemy. I realise ToME is descended from Angband - and hell, I enjoy Angband - but one of that game's worst features is how much 'required knowledge' there is; what breathes what, for how much, when drolems start showing up, etc, and I think it's something ToME would do well to avoid.

2) The random nature of things, touched upon above when mentioning variation in damage. Another good example is the escort quests. The more the result of something doesn't depend on the player's judgment or skill, but on luck, the more frustrating and less fun it becomes. The randomnly generated rares and bosses and such are another example of this. Some random variation is good, but too much - particularly when it can kill off a character you've invested dozens of hours in - is definitely bad.

I think Crawl sets a good example; in my experience, there's never a single moment in that game where you think 'I've done X - because of that one mistake, I'm dead'. Sure, you can open a door and find yourself next to something really strong, or you can misjudge your damage and pass out from berserk before killing your target, but the common situation you find yourself in after a mistake is 'Oh crap, that was bad. What resources do I have available to spend to get out of this? Teleport scroll? Heal potion? Fog? MP?'. What with using infusions and such, ToME can't directly replicate this, but I do think the idea of being dead not because of the last mistake you made, but because of all the cumulative mistakes you made beforehand (leading to you wasting resources you otherwise would have had available) is a staple of the genre for good reason, and something we could do with moving more toward.

[SageAcrin]

1) Nethack's level of 'spoiler-required' (for example, there are many opportunities in ToME where you're given quests or can access areas and have no real idea of what to expect

I cleared this game on Adventure within a dozen characters, only three of which were serious attempts that hadn't eaten a mistake early(because I'm picky). And I picked a fairly esoteric combination(Ghoul Necromancer) and refused to spoil myself.

Maybe I'm an outlier, but spoiler-required isn't the right term. There are many places in Nethack or Crawl where you may think you're spoiled, but you don't really have any idea how it plays out in practice and still die.

The graveyard/crypt springs to mind, as does the demon possession thing).

Having said that, I won't argue that these are kinda iffy(Atamathon later, as well). There's nothing wrong with high challenge optional areas, but it's not terribly clear that these places are notably high challenge optional areas when you enter-and the Crypt actually locks you in. (I admit I find the randomized one-shot areas the low point of ToME design.)

I think Crawl sets a good example; in my experience, there's never a single moment in that game where you think 'I've done X - because of that one mistake, I'm dead'.

You haven't played enough then.

I have quite literally gotten one-shotted by rounding a corner in autoexplore and an Ogre happening to be in the right spot. You don't have escapes by then. Ditto ditto Hydra in Lair, half the OODs in the first ten floors-and Crawl has far worse OOD protection-there used to be GNOLL PACKS ON D1 for crying out loud and it took quite a while of complaints to get those pulled. How about Iron Dragons on D10? Took even longer. How about purposefully placed open vaults with dragons in them in Lair? Do you think you can take on an Ice Dragon in Lair? Do you think you'll survive more than two or three shots?

How about every single timed portal that isn't a Labryinth-which can kill the unspoiled an entirely new and exciting way, namely slow and frustrating starvation? (Of course, maybe they're lucky enough to understand how you use permafood in Crawl's design, and that it's not meant to just be eaten and that you're supposed to wander around constantly on some level of hunger and corpse-eating instead of using permafood as anything but a food potion for emergencies or burst damage. After all, the game does explain that. Wait, no, sorry, it doesn't, it just implies it with design, my bad.)

I had a Zot:5 nearly instant death thanks to two Ancient Liches appearing at equal distances from me and not having Controlled Blink(They proceeded to summon, eventually, an Executioner and a Tormentor in the same space. Despite being one of my strongest characters ever, nope, no Torment resist for Zot:5. Because that's basically on *one spell*...), and another from having a Dragon appear behind me when a secret door popped open on an attempt to do a physical oriented troll(don't let people lie to you. Trolls are bad in Crawl. Do Troll Wizard if you must do one, Troll hybrids are far less painful.).

Both were, thanks to my draw of equips and my build, only avoidable by putting myself into higher danger situations via randomized teleport, because I hadn't invested in a high-investment randomly-accessable spell(Controlled Blink) that I believe they're even talking of nerfing.

Tomb is practically full of instant deaths since the Reaper buff, the Hells are almost entirely RNG bait unless you have an insane setup, Pandemonium is pure random but the Gloorx Executioner pack can always go wrong.

And every single escape you mentioned is nowhere near as consistent as being able to buy a Rune or Infusion in ToME is.

You might, however, be colored by Crawl's culture, which is so into spoiling the game that they have a bot that spoils things in their main IRC chat room for anyone that asks.

Crawl's development team has a cute conceit of stating that the game is almost entirely non-luck. They're full of it, as someone that got eleven clears on it, including a fifteen rune half the devs didn't bother to get, and including a runthrough with an Orc Priest that ran through on like one artifact.

If this sounds harsh-it's meant to. I'm quite bitter that they've moved away from polishing out the luck issues after around 0.9, and instead have moved towards simple removal of "too good" things. Regardless, touting Crawl as superior design to ToME for RNG luck and spoiler-free design does indeed annoy me a little, and baffle me to no end, considering my experience with Crawl pre-spoilers was massive amounts of deaths over and over and over.

ToME does things like give you full readouts of enemy skills and damages(...mostly. I will admit showing enemy equipment, or at least enemy weapons, would be a good polish move. To be clear; I'm not saying ToME is perfect either.) if you rightclick on them. Crawl gives you vague figures. Crawl does things like hide your own damages from you and how practically everything works, to the point where most of the development team doesn't understand ranged physical combat. ToME goes for full disclosure. Etc. Basically I could go on eternally, but this is probably enough of a rant about why I like the direction ToME goes in, for now.

[Covenant]

You haven't played enough then.

Quite presumptuous, don't you think? That said, I can think of one exception. 'Your weapon dances away from you. Xom thinks this is hilarious!'. (The mistake being, of course, worshipping Xom in the first place ).

I remember the gnoll packs on D:1 quite well; honestly, I'd barely noticed they've been removed. They could be tricky, sure, but they weren't that much of a big deal. Besides which, D:1 deaths really aren't what I was talking about. 'Oh, what's this potion? It's poison, I'm dead.' is, again, a staple of the genre. Avoidable if one plays extremely conservatively, but not worth it for the small amount of time lost and the rarity of its occurence. I haven't had any problems of the sort you mention with autoexplore and ogres/hydras, I think it works very well. But if it's a recurring issue for you I'd suggest using manual explore until you feel capable of dealing with likely dangers. And by the time you meet hydras, if you don't have escape options or abilities or at least the survivability to run until you can put another creature between you and it, it's really your own fault.

As for your other examples, I think they serve to prove my point rather well. Iron/Ice Dragon on D:10, or the Lair? Assuming you're not unlucky enough to round a corner and wind up toe-to-toe with them (and such rare circumstances are what the various escape options - teleport, speed, blink, etc, are for, and you certainly should have encountered a few of them by that point), you always have the option of retreating to the nearest up (or down) stairs and gaining experience elsewhere. There are multiple staircases, and the levels are generally big enough that so long as you keep positioning, LOS and potential escape routes in mind, it's very difficult to get locked into an unavoidable death through anything but your own carelessness. Besides which, I don't think those examples are anywhere near as OoD (in terms of encounter strength vs player strength) as those often found in ToME, so long as you pick and choose your battles. Your Ice Dragon example would be something I'd consider a bit of a boon to any slightly tanky character who'd found a wand of fire and some cold resistance by that point. On the other hand, if I'm a weak mage with nothing but Magic Darts to attack with, I'm not going to try to take it on.

I agree that Crawl's not perfect - I never claimed it was - and things like Pandemonium, the Abyss, etc, could do with being somewhat more transparent, along with some creature abilities (such as banishment). Timed portals are a good point of criticism, but again, I can't think of any 'locked-in' ones that in any way compare to the OoD factor of some of ToME's. Or the one-shot factor, for the escapable ones.

One point I was trying to praise in my earlier post, which may have been lost, was the relative lack of one-shot deaths. A player who walks into a place he shouldn't be yet, takes a big hit and has to burn some resource that isn't easily replenished (e.g a blink scroll) has learned his lesson and paid for it, but hasn't lost his game to something that he really couldn't have predicted. Whereas a player who enters somewhere he shouldn't be, gets his escape options put onto cooldown*, is frozen/stunned/given a debuff he can't deal with that will kill him in X turns, and dies, has only learned that the game is frustrating and unfair.

Another point, I don't understand how you can call runes/infusions in ToME more reliable when they can frequently be prevented from working?

You describe one of your own deaths to Ancient Liches; it sounds like a tough situation, but couldn't a blink scroll, fog scroll, speed (or berserk?) potion or even just conservative positioning (e.g staying near the upstairs) have all saved you? As well as potentially two or three heal wounds potions, depending on your damage capabilities. Hypothetically, you didn't die because the RNG decided to spawn two Ancient Liches, it was a combination of that and all the mistakes you'd made previously when you spent any of those resources unnecessarily/suboptimally.

I didn't make my original post to discuss Crawl, but rather to discuss how I hope ToME's balance changes pan out, but to gloss over your other points: The Hells are difficult, but it's fairly clear after spending 50 turns in one what the dangers are, so it relies on you to make a judgment call about your own abilities and whether they're enough to survive a prolonged expedition. The information available on monsters (and yourself) is easily available through examination, but isn't as numerical as ToME. However, I find the numerical aspect unhelpful. Poring over a list of talents and adding up various +12% bonuses and DoT affects and factoring in cooldowns all to work out how much of a danger it actually poses is a lot less fun than simply letting the player find out through experience - without being killed. If one-shots are avoided it allows the player to intuitively gauge the danger they're in rather than specifically calculate it, something that will improve with their experience (rather than with their math skills).

And by the way, I don't follow your criticism of the food thing - you seem to be implying you want the game to handhold you to the extent it says things like 'These monsters are hitting you pretty hard - you should get more armor!'. Personally, that's a big turn-off for me. There's nothing more irritating than getting a new game and having to play through a tutorial battle or something similar that thinks I have all the brainpower of a garden slug.

It's going to quickly become obvious to any spellcasting character - particularly one who reads the manual - that food is a big concern for casters. Using replenishable, temporary sources of it over non-spoiling permanent food seems extremely obvious, and not something the game needs to signpost. If anyone doesn't work it out for themselves, they will once they've had their first starvation death.

[SageAcrin]

Quite presumptuous, don't you think?

I agree. Let's see you show me wrong. What's your area order? What's your gear before a given area? How far have you gotten, how many runes? I don't ask for proof backing it up-I play offline, and I respect those that do. Just give me some general info here that you actually know what you're talking about before you comment on Crawl as superior to ToME-never mind that the games are incredibly different and appeal to different people anyways(The massively different length of game is certainly going to seal that.), making me dislike the commentary even more, since it implies Crawl is the One True Roguelike way of doing things.

I haven't had any problems of the sort you mention with autoexplore and ogres/hydras, I think it works very well. But if it's a recurring issue for you I'd suggest using manual explore until you feel capable of dealing with likely dangers. And by the time you meet hydras, if you don't have escape options or abilities or at least the survivability to run until you can put another creature between you and it, it's really your own fault.

Isn't giving me the talk about when and when not to use auto-explore-when I've told you I've 15 runed and can probably pastebin chunks of my morgue files until you get bored and wander off-even more presumptuous than what I said? Also, autoexplore is more often safer than relying on your own reflexes-it never misses someone existing and will never hold down a button.

Anywho, I'm speaking of the times that you literally round a corner and hit a hydra or ogre right next to you. Surprisingly memorable when they happen! Especially the time I literally did it, and the Ogre's reaction was to hit me for more than my HP, because he got a lucky roll!

(Grinder's general existance is another example of RNG the game, since he can fullscreen paralyze you in a chain until you die. Man, I like Sigmund, at least he's tactical and takes a really bad weapon spawn to get his oneshot potential up. By the way, Crawl also doesn't tell you what weapons people have spawned with unless they are artifacts, but that's okay there? Enough so that you noted ToME not warning you, but not Crawl?)

Iron/Ice Dragon on D:10, or the Lair? Assuming you're not unlucky enough to round a corner and wind up toe-to-toe with them (and such rare circumstances are what the various escape options - teleport, speed, blink, etc, are for, and you certainly should have encountered a few of them by that point),

Movement, Teleport, etc. are what you have in ToME. Avoiding having those by the equivalent of D:10 or the Lair(tier two dungeons) is nearly impossible-unlike Crawl, where it is most certainly possible to have not gotten enough drops, had too many bad situations that required one, or had them burn in a fire/freeze in ice. If you still don't have those by tier two dungeons, go actually visit a shop. Which, unlike Crawl, certainly appear.

(Also, Iron Dragons can *oneshot* you with their breath, though it's no guarantee...but if you're playing the odds in a Roguelike, you deserve your inevitable death when the odds go sour anyways. Go look up their top-end damage potential and compare it to HP at that point. I fortunately never ran into one. The Ice Dragons I saw I avoided or even killed-but I also have a lot of clears and have done that to many of the "oneshot" risks people talk of in ToME as well.)

You describe one of your own deaths to Ancient Liches; it sounds like a tough situation, but couldn't a blink scroll, fog scroll, speed (or berserk?) potion or even just conservative positioning (e.g staying near the upstairs) have all saved you?

Again, you're showing why I made the comment. Ever been to Zot:5 before?

Hypothetically, you didn't die because the RNG decided to spawn two Ancient Liches, it was a combination of that and all the mistakes you'd made previously when you spent any of those resources unnecessarily/suboptimally.

Lemme explain in depth; Zot:5 is taken up 80% by a massive vault. Two Ancient Liches spawned-I hasted, gunned it away, and they Hasted as well and gunned it after me. If you teleport on Zot:5, you end up in the major vault areas-which are lethal, open zones with the highest quantity of high quality enemies per-capita in the game, so that's suicide. Berserk with a Fighter/Mage build(HE...IE, I believe that was? Or was it Wz?)? No. Fog? No...Fog is not really a really consistent answer lategame to nearly anything; They'll move right through it after you anyways(your Fog hype also shows an earlygame orientation, where it does stop things like Centaur packs from killing you instantly in some situations. But, again, I suppose that is presumptuous.).

Blinking, yes, but they'd gotten burned or used. Zot has massive quantities of fire, ranging from Dragons to Draconians(Large packs that are often most likely to Sticky Flame you) to Orbs of Fire; Preservation will not reliably keep your scrolls intact(and is nearly required because you will not have a single scroll otherwise...and of course, Preservation is only likely to show up in your average run, not guaranteed.). Zot in general has high danger, and while, in general, these days I drop my Blinking off before Zot:5, so that I have them for the higher risk, that is nonetheless an act that could get me torn apart by a bad Tiamat placement earlier, one of these days.

Also, Heal Wounds? Really? 20 HP to 200 HP endgame? You think that prevents Torment? Halving your HP(35% at best)? Or maybe you think every HE has Necromutation at endgame? Or do you think that an Executioner still doesn't get multiple actions to your one after he Hastes himself-even through high evade and AC? (I forget what armor I was wearing on him, but it wasn't a robe-I had some GDR. One of the dragon armors, probably standard or Swamp, since those are my favorites.)

Yes, I was chugging those all the way to the stairs, because I had rather nuts defenses, because I strongly overkill defensive builds... but an Executioner moves well faster than a hasted character, and an enemy had spawned behind me, preventing an easy run to the stairs(or maybe one of the Liches teleported there...I forget.).

I had knocked out one of the liches and was about three steps from the stairs when I finally died, not a bad run. Maybe paying the huge invest for Borg's would have saved me, but last I checked there is only so much EXP you can expect to get on a three rune. (I was actually planning on turning that into a 15, IIRC. Broke my heart, so I came back later, and got my 15 rune with a very similar build. One that bought Controlled Blink first, the L7 spell that my first character never found.)

But this is, of course, a digression. I've screwed up characters and I see your overall point-it's just that the conciet that your skill can always triumph over the RNG is kinda inane. Of course it can't. The RNG can always be sufficiently bad. It usually isn't, and it's easy to blame it for things...but it can always be sufficiently bad.

Another point, I don't understand how you can call runes/infusions in ToME more reliable when they can frequently be prevented from working?

You mean like how teleports in Crawl aren't instant? Cooldowns exist, yeah.

Unless you mean how status can prevent you from getting them out, due to forced cooldowns? I would say that destruction of the options is at least equal there, but there are status that can prevent scrolls as well. But even better, the forced cooldowns no longer work on instant options-which include the thing that cures the forced cooldown-or items-which includes the things that can cure the forced cooldowns.

In other words, if you believe this is a major issue, you, in fact, don't know how to use the options yet. Do you think that people instantly understand Crawl's?

The Hells are difficult, but it's fairly clear after spending 50 turns in one what the dangers are, so it relies on you to make a judgment call about your own abilities and whether they're enough to survive a prolonged expedition.

Both the areas you mentioned allow the same option. Recall out, if they're feeling too much. I don't say that's a good answer in either case, mind.

The information available on monsters (and yourself) is easily available through examination, but isn't as numerical as ToME. However, I find the numerical aspect unhelpful. Poring over a list of talents and adding up various +12% bonuses and DoT affects and factoring in cooldowns all to work out how much of a danger it actually poses is a lot less fun than simply letting the player find out through experience - without being killed.

Of course you don't math out every single fight. You math out close situations-an option Crawl doesn't give you unless you dig into Henzell. In either case, it benefits you massively to get that feel for the game. And that feel will not allow you to make meaningful comparisons of some skills or spells without spoiling, in Crawl. Is Borg's worth leveling for? How much MHP do you lose? It doesn't say. How long does Death's Door last? Doesn't say. How much HP does it leave you with? Doesn't say. How about which one is better, Bolt of Magma, Fireball or Bolt of Fire? Yeah you're not likely to get a feel for that without doing a full run with any of the three or spoilers. How does the Armor skill work? Doesn't say so badly that people thought not leveling Dodging was a good idea for heavy armor builds(I have an MD, made right before their removal, with like 30+ in both defensive stats, that says otherwise.). Etc.

Also, those 12% impacts, if you mean the damage bonuses, are factored in for you. ToME basically simulates the damage of the spell cast. Handy, that.

Personally, that's a big turn-off for me. There's nothing more irritating than getting a new game and having to play through a tutorial battle or something similar that thinks I have all the brainpower of a garden slug.

No, optional tutorial.

Though, admittedly, Crawl and ToME both have iffy ones. ToME's is outdated and Crawl's is honestly not useful-I learned more from five minutes of playing than I did from the tutorial. I think they updated that, though, so that may be better on Crawl these days.

Regardless I am implying that every single portal is dangerous, just one of them is only dangerous if you meet X condition...which you might meet through no fault of your own(Food issues happen, Centaurs and Ogres run through a lot, and there's no Hive anymore to guarantee any.), and which it does not advertise before you enter.

(Though...some Wizlabs are less dangerous and more "end your game through mutations". Hi Cig. Also Eringya's is benign as hell any time you're likely to see it, which is the joke.)

It was not a food clock commentary. The only issue I have with the food clock is that they tossed Hive, and that's just that they removed RNGproofing of the food clock, something I object to in theory. I mind it a lot less than some people I've talked to, though, it just strikes me as a poor decision, not something I'd stop playing the game over.

(I think I finally decided I would never play a version later than 0.9 after they nuked Stalkers and Evap. Making Evap an L3 or even L4 spell I would have respected over a wholesale toss, it was a very unique spell. That's just boring as hell. Not specifically because of that removal, mind you, removal is just the Crawl mindset these days and that one depressed me worse than usual. Stalkers were neat.)

[Covenant]

Quite presumptuous, don't you think?

I agree. Let's see you show me wrong. What's your area order? What's your gear before a given area? How far have you gotten, how many runes? I don't ask for proof backing it up-I play offline, and I respect those that do. Just give me some general info here that you actually know what you're talking about before you comment on Crawl as superior to ToME-never mind that the games are incredibly different and appeal to different people anyways(The massively different length of game is certainly going to seal that.), making me dislike the commentary even more, since it implies Crawl is the One True Roguelike way of doing things.

Let's get one thing straight; I'm not going to justify myself to you by rattling off a list of 'credentials'. I don't know about you, but I grew out of internet pissing contests a long time ago. My opinion is just that, and you're free to disregard it. But to presume that I lack experience because it differs from yours is arrogant, and to voice that assumption is rude.

And 'commenting on Crawl as superior to ToME'? I wrote a post briefly touching upon one way in which I think ToME would be improved by following Crawl's example. That, apparently, was enough to prompt you to completely divert the thread. Touchy subject?

Regardless of your misinterpretation, there are many things I like about ToME, a great deal of them things that aren't found in Crawl - or indeed many of the other roguelikes I could use to draw comparisons to ToME. Given as how you appear to be letting personal experience colour your viewpoint on the issue, perhaps it would have been better if I'd chosen another example to demonstrate my point.

I haven't had any problems of the sort you mention with autoexplore and ogres/hydras, I think it works very well. But if it's a recurring issue for you I'd suggest using manual explore until you feel capable of dealing with likely dangers. And by the time you meet hydras, if you don't have escape options or abilities or at least the survivability to run until you can put another creature between you and it, it's really your own fault.

Isn't giving me the talk about when and when not to use auto-explore-when I've told you I've 15 runed and can probably pastebin chunks of my morgue files until you get bored and wander off-even more presumptuous than what I said? Also, autoexplore is more often safer than relying on your own reflexes-it never misses someone existing and will never hold down a button.

Not really - I offer advice on how to deal with the situation you complained about. You're free to take it if it's useful or leave it if it's not. I don't make any assumptions about your ability - if anything, you now seem to be complaining that I'm *not* doing so? That because of your mighty morgue files and fifteen-rune escapades I should assume you play perfectly, with no room for improvement? Seems rather contradictory.

And again, I can only speak for my own experience, but I've never had an issue re holding down the button; but that may be because if not using autoexplore, I tend to use the run option.

Anywho, I'm speaking of the times that you literally round a corner and hit a hydra or ogre right next to you. Surprisingly memorable when they happen! Especially the time I literally did it, and the Ogre's reaction was to hit me for more than my HP, because he got a lucky roll!

Certainly possible, but as far as I've seen proper positioning (i.e. not rounding a corner on the inside if you can avoid it) renders such occurences rare to the degree of insignificance. And how long are ogres a danger for, really?

And of course, this ties in with what I've already said about conserving resources. Though more with the hydras than the ogres; early on, positioning's the more important factor.

(Grinder's general existance is another example of RNG the game, since he can fullscreen paralyze you in a chain until you die. Man, I like Sigmund, at least he's tactical and takes a really bad weapon spawn to get his oneshot potential up.

The biggest danger I've observed with early game uniques, particularly Sigmund, is overconfidence. I can't imagine how many guys have had to tell their friends who they've introduced to the game, after the fourth or fifth death 'You know, you don't have to kill that guy. You can run the other way.'

By the way, Crawl also doesn't tell you what weapons people have spawned with unless they are artifacts, but that's okay there? Enough so that you noted ToME not warning you, but not Crawl?)

I believe you're mistaken there. If you examine a monster, you can see whatever it's wielding or wearing.

Iron/Ice Dragon on D:10, or the Lair? Assuming you're not unlucky enough to round a corner and wind up toe-to-toe with them (and such rare circumstances are what the various escape options - teleport, speed, blink, etc, are for, and you certainly should have encountered a few of them by that point),

Movement, Teleport, etc. are what you have in ToME. Avoiding having those by the equivalent of D:10 or the Lair(tier two dungeons) is nearly impossible-unlike Crawl, where it is most certainly possible to have not gotten enough drops, had too many bad situations that required one, or had them burn in a fire/freeze in ice. If you still don't have those by tier two dungeons, go actually visit a shop. Which, unlike Crawl, certainly appear.

The difference is more evident in level and creature design. A couple of tiles space can be the difference between life and death in Crawl, frequently, as I'm sure you know. The same can be true in ToME of course, but much less so in my experience. And due to the level design, random teleport seems a lot more likely to help in Crawl than in ToME. And again, 'enough drops' or 'too many bad situations' is all dependant on your performance. Improving that performance should (generally) mean that by the same point in your next game, you'll have more resources available. Plus there's always the option to take another route - that's the advantage of the branches, and the open level design + relative lack of OHKOs allowing you to see a danger without having to engage with it.

(Also, Iron Dragons can *oneshot* you with their breath, though it's no guarantee...but if you're playing the odds in a Roguelike, you deserve your inevitable death when the odds go sour anyways. Go look up their top-end damage potential and compare it to HP at that point. I fortunately never ran into one. The Ice Dragons I saw I avoided or even killed-but I also have a lot of clears and have done that to many of the "oneshot" risks people talk of in ToME as well.)

I've never been oneshot by an OoD Iron Dragon either. But I entirely agree that it's ruining the game

(Blade traps, on the other hand, I've had a couple of nasty experiences with those. Taught me not to wander around with less than maximum HP, though).

You describe one of your own deaths to Ancient Liches; it sounds like a tough situation, but couldn't a blink scroll, fog scroll, speed (or berserk?) potion or even just conservative positioning (e.g staying near the upstairs) have all saved you?

Again, you're showing why I made the comment. Ever been to Zot:5 before?

Cute. Yes, I've been to Zot:5 many times since I first won back before Stone Soup was a thing. 4.0...something B? My memory's hazy. I vaguely remember my first win, a Human Fighter, I think. Wasn't anything to write home about; I much preferred my DSCK (Xom) win back before they re-worked Demonspawns (SS 0.5, maybe? Like I say, my memory's hazy). It involved some crazy teleporting away from Orbs of Fire, managing by sheer luck to end up near the Orb, Apporting it (which I'd memorised for no reason at all), teleporting away again, and somehow running up the stairs before the various nasties could catch me. My worst win, by far, but one of the most fun. Good times.

Anyway, to answer your question, yes I've been to Zot:5 before, many times.

Hypothetically, you didn't die because the RNG decided to spawn two Ancient Liches, it was a combination of that and all the mistakes you'd made previously when you spent any of those resources unnecessarily/suboptimally.

Lemme explain in depth; Zot:5 is taken up 80% by a massive vault. Two Ancient Liches spawned-I hasted, gunned it away, and they Hasted as well and gunned it after me. If you teleport on Zot:5, you end up in the major vault areas-which are lethal, open zones with the highest quantity of high quality enemies per-capita in the game, so that's suicide. Berserk with a Fighter/Mage build(HE...IE, I believe that was? Or was it Wz?)

I can't tell you what your build or race-class combo was, I'm afraid.

No. Fog? No...Fog is not really a really consistent answer lategame to nearly anything; They'll move right through it after you anyways(your Fog hype also shows an earlygame orientation, where it does stop things like Centaur packs from killing you instantly in some situations. But, again, I suppose that is presumptuous.).

I would say that your discounting of available options explains why you're mislabelling some situations as inescapable. Fog's hardly the most powerful weapon in your arsenal (that'd be the butterflies of random usefulness, naturally), but when you have decent speed and a few tiles head start it's extremely helpful for preventing a nasty LCS death or similar while you make your escape.

Blinking, yes, but they'd gotten burned or used. Zot has massive quantities of fire, ranging from Dragons to Draconians(Large packs that are often most likely to Sticky Flame you) to Orbs of Fire; Preservation will not reliably keep your scrolls intact(and is nearly required because you will not have a single scroll otherwise...and of course, Preservation is only likely to show up in your average run, not guaranteed.). Zot in general has high danger, and while, in general, these days I drop my Blinking off before Zot:5, so that I have them for the higher risk, that is nonetheless an act that could get me torn apart by a bad Tiamat placement earlier, one of these days.

From what you say here, it seems as though you're losing a lot of resources due to poor stashing. Or were - if 'these days' you've changed that, I'm happy to hear that.

Also, Heal Wounds? Really? 20 HP to 200 HP endgame? You think that prevents Torment? Halving your HP(35% at best)? Or maybe you think every HE has Necromutation at endgame? Or do you think that an Executioner still doesn't get multiple actions to your one after he Hastes himself-even through high evade and AC? (I forget what armor I was wearing on him, but it wasn't a robe-I had some GDR. One of the dragon armors, probably standard or Swamp, since those are my favorites.)

Again, I don't know your build. Heal Wounds is one of a number of options that would assist some builds in surviving that situation.

Yes, I was chugging those all the way to the stairs, because I had rather nuts defenses, because I strongly overkill defensive builds... but an Executioner moves well faster than a hasted character, and an enemy had spawned behind me, preventing an easy run to the stairs(or maybe one of the Liches teleported there...I forget.).

I had knocked out one of the liches and was about three steps from the stairs when I finally died, not a bad run. Maybe paying the huge invest for Borg's would have saved me, but last I checked there is only so much EXP you can expect to get on a three rune. (I was actually planning on turning that into a 15, IIRC. Broke my heart, so I came back later, and got my 15 rune with a very similar build. One that bought Controlled Blink first, the L7 spell that my first character never found.)

Not knowing more about your circumstances, I won't say anything about this.

But this is, of course, a digression. I've screwed up characters and I see your overall point-it's just that the conciet that your skill can always triumph over the RNG is kinda inane. Of course it can't. The RNG can always be sufficiently bad. It usually isn't, and it's easy to blame it for things...but it can always be sufficiently bad.

A bit of a pointless point, to be honest. You could roll up a game of D&D or similar where you constantly roll critical misses till you die. The same for any game with a to-hit system where a low enough roll will always miss. You usually won't, but... you can.

Another point I don't understand how you can call runes/infusions in ToME more reliable when they can frequently be prevented from working?

You mean like how teleports in Crawl aren't instant? Cooldowns exist, yeah.

You seem to misunderstand the term 'reliable'. The delay doesn't make teleports unreliable, because it's not like it pops up 1 out of 20 times - it's just an aspect of the teleport.

Unless you mean how status can prevent you from getting them out, due to forced cooldowns? I would say that destruction of the options is at least equal there, but there are status that can prevent scrolls as well. But even better, the forced cooldowns no longer work on instant options-which include the thing that cures the forced cooldown-or items-which includes the things that can cure the forced cooldowns.

I believe you're vastly exaggerating equipment destruction. Unless you're walking around with a single copy of everything you need (one scroll, one potion, etc) and then find yourself up the creek when it's destroyed. Again, that would fall under not enough resources. Statuses that prevent scrolls is a valid point, though really, all you're likely to encounter is confusion, and even that's rarely a problem in Crawl.

Forced cooldowns being negated by the right instant infusion/item is all well and good, assuming the player has the right item. Or that the infusion isn't on cooldown because you needed it a few turns ago to cure some other potentially deadly status. Or that the thing that cures the forced cooldown doesn't cure something else, instead.

In other words, if you believe this is a major issue, you, in fact, don't know how to use the options yet. Do you think that people instantly understand Crawl's?

'If you have an opinion counter to mine you don't know how to play the game'. I see. And no, I don't think people instantly understand Crawl's options, but I think that by and large they are self-explanatory and intuitive, and documentation for things that require further explanation is easily accessible.

The Hells are difficult, but it's fairly clear after spending 50 turns in one what the dangers are, so it relies on you to make a judgment call about your own abilities and whether they're enough to survive a prolonged expedition.

Both the areas you mentioned allow the same option. Recall out, if they're feeling too much. I don't say that's a good answer in either case, mind.

The difference being that in Crawl, things ramp up steadily and escape is generally much more accessible (there's no recall delay on a staircase, after all). It's not a case of triggering a dialogue ala 'Hmm, assassin lord, eh? Well the rest of this dungeon was easy, and there's only a couple of his thugs around, I'll defy him and save this mercha- oh wait I'm dead'.

The information available on monsters (and yourself) is easily available through examination, but isn't as numerical as ToME. However, I find the numerical aspect unhelpful. Poring over a list of talents and adding up various +12% bonuses and DoT affects and factoring in cooldowns all to work out how much of a danger it actually poses is a lot less fun than simply letting the player find out through experience - without being killed.

Of course you don't math out every single fight. You math out close situations-an option Crawl doesn't give you unless you dig into Henzell.

For good reason. For me, at least, there's no fun in mathing out a fight before I do it to assure myself that yes, I've got a 95% chance of winning. Even if avoiding the math just gives me the illusion of risk, it's a fun illusion, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who plays that way.

In either case, it benefits you massively to get that feel for the game. And that feel will not allow you to make meaningful comparisons of some skills or spells without spoiling, in Crawl.

I would say the comparisons are more meaningful because they come from experience (without it being overly painful experience).

Is Borg's worth leveling for? How much MHP do you lose? It doesn't say. How long does Death's Door last? Doesn't say. How much HP does it leave you with? Doesn't say. How about which one is better, Bolt of Magma, Fireball or Bolt of Fire? Yeah you're not likely to get a feel for that without doing a full run with any of the three or spoilers.

All of these can be answered to within an acceptable degree with just common sense. Is Borg's worth levelling for? If you've got a somewhat tanky build that has a relatively high HP, sure. If not? No. How much MHP do you lose? Well if the spell's still in the game, it has to be enough to make it still worth using, but not non-trivial. Similar logic can be applied to Death's Door. As for the spells, just look at spell levels. Which is better? Depends what you're going for. Magma, as the fact that it comes up as Conjurations/Fire/Earth in your spell menu implies, isn't purely fire magic, so it's better for dealing with fire resistance.

How does the Armor skill work? Doesn't say so badly that people thought not leveling Dodging was a good idea for heavy armor builds(I have an MD, made right before their removal, with like 30+ in both defensive stats, that says otherwise.). Etc

However, Armor is vague, perhaps due to it seemingly constantly being messed around with, and the documentation for it in the manual could do with being improved.

Also, those 12% impacts, if you mean the damage bonuses, are factored in for you. ToME basically simulates the damage of the spell cast. Handy, that.

I was referring to things such as 'The target takes 12% more damage from liquorice-flavoured attacks for the next 9 turns'. Prior to being hit by the liquorice stick, of course. Not impossible to math out if it is required, but not exactly fun to do so either.

Personally, that's a big turn-off for me. There's nothing more irritating than getting a new game and having to play through a tutorial battle or something similar that thinks I have all the brainpower of a garden slug.

No, optional tutorial.

I know there's not a forced tutorial. I have played both games.

Regardless I am implying that every single portal is dangerous, just one of them is only dangerous if you meet X condition...which you might meet through no fault of your own(Food issues happen, Centaurs and Ogres run through a lot, and there's no Hive anymore to guarantee any.), and which it does not advertise before you enter.

(Though...some Wizlabs are less dangerous and more "end your game through mutations". Hi Cig. Also Eringya's is benign as hell any time you're likely to see it, which is the joke.)

Did you mean to say 'I am not implying'? And I think you're over-egging labyrinths a bit; even for a Centaur or an Ogre. Though I suppose if you for some reason thought to move away from the metallic walls you wouldn't have much of a chance. Seems counter-intuitive, though. And doesn't examining the entrance to the portal give you a brief description that tells you it's dangerous in there and you're likely to starve?

It was not a food clock commentary. The only issue I have with the food clock is that they tossed Hive, and that's just that they removed RNGproofing of the food clock, something I object to in theory. I mind it a lot less than some people I've talked to, though, it just strikes me as a poor decision, not something I'd stop playing the game over.

Meh, the Hive made food a non-concern for the rest of the game. That's enough reason to get rid of it in my eyes.

(I think I finally decided I would never play a version later than 0.9 after they nuked Stalkers and Evap. Making Evap an L3 or even L4 spell I would have respected over a wholesale toss, it was a very unique spell. That's just boring as hell. Not specifically because of that removal, mind you, removal is just the Crawl mindset these days and that one depressed me worse than usual. Stalkers were neat.)

I think they're by far adding more than they're removing. And Stalkers were never my favourites.

[SageAcrin]

Oh, so you're not willing to share any information about your experience.

Okay, fair enough. I'll have to stick with my initial opinion then, which, based on how your statements jive with my knowledge, is that you are on the ignorant side of what does and does not constitute good options and balance, then, since you won't actually say you've completed either game. And/or you won't say you've gotten X distance, and you won't say you've experiemented with X classes or builds, etc, I don't want to say only people that have cleared can have opinions, mind.

You can see throughout here where I have respected the opinions of people new to the game, and tried to explain things to them-based on my opinion, which is honestly backed up by a lot of experience. It's still colored by being from me. I respect not saying it's instantly special because of that. But if you're not willing to give me any idea of what your experience is, it becomes impossible to have a meaningful conversation.

Sorry. I really hate to put it like this, but my record on ToME is findable with a quick search-look for winners since b36, you'll find a dozen. You can think I faked them, and that I care about both games a lot-strongly, in both directions-without having gotten anywhere-I don't know why you'd think that, but maybe I'm just someone who likes Roguelikes without getting anywhere in them and am a liar/cheater...fair enough, you don't know me. You can find my Dreadmor clear on Steam, but that can be cheated too...so, fair enough. I am not saying you have to respect my experience, or even think it exists.

But try to get where I'm coming from here.

Without you willing to meet me halfway on that knowledge, I can't usefully converse with you.

You may have some good points(I have granted several!), but if you're comparing only parts of the game, then I need to know which parts, so I can properly analyze and defend/criticize(I have not unmitigatedly defended ToME here, nor unmitigatedly bashed Crawl.) both games, based on what you've seen, so I can tell you what parts are and aren't like what you think they are, in my opinion-then, you can develop your own opinion on my opinion, and it can be a real discussion, which I like quite a lot.

I don't want to make paragraph-long posts describing situations to you every single situation that you may or may not have seen so that you get where I'm coming from, like I did detailing that situation in Zot. Too much work, and you have too many opinions. Sorry again, and my apologies for making you make that huge post when you could have just said you weren't willing to share.

[HousePet]

tl;dr

I've got further in ToME that I have in Crawl. (running away is something I need to work on)
I think that has something to do with the world structure really. ToME let's you access multiple branches instantly, so when something OoD appears, you more of an opportunity to go somewhere else without having to dive deeper.
Still after getting a Patchwork Troll in Trollmire 4, I've had a quick look at the code, and I think there might be a small issue with monster generation. I'll look a bit deeper and poke Darkgod.

Overall, I think I prefer ToME to Crawl. More depth of flavour, (mostly) complete information about what each skill/stat does, and you don't have to keep picking up ammo. (I've suggested Crawl could copy ToME's system here, the reload system makes ranged weapons so much more functional, without making it feeln like unlimited ammo.)

Oh, and Xom should be more interesting to play with, I spent some time tweaking his moods.

[tiger_eye]

Still after getting a Patchwork Troll in Trollmire 4, I've had a quick look at the code, and I think there might be a small issue with monster generation.

Quick note: Trollmire 4 may have OOD enemies. The more OOD something is, the less likely it is to spawn. The rest of the tier one zones are (or at least should be) OOD-protected; Trollmire 4 is simply special and meant to be possibly hard.

[wobbly]

Quick note: Trollmire 4 may have OOD enemies. The more OOD something is, the less likely it is to spawn. The rest of the tier one zones are (or at least should be) OOD-protected; Trollmire 4 is simply special and meant to be possibly hard.

This is confusing me a little. Are low tier zones still meant to be OOD-protected if your character is OOD for the zone?