New player learning curve

[outolumo]

ToME is a fairly complex game. Therefore the unlock system is simply great. I think that early on it should be used even more extensively to encourage new players to do some exploration and experimenting.

Basically: To begin with new player is given only one choise:
Cormac, an offensive fighter (berserk) or a defensive fighter (bulwark). Everything else is an unlock. Of course there would be some very easy unlocks:

Thaloren by visiting Shatur
Shaloren from Elvala
Higher from New Hope
Halfling... Derth? Ruins?

Etc.

Dwarfs have a different start, so maybe quite late, perhaps by entering Reknor? That's late, but by then the player should have learned how to play... Special dwarven quest?

As well, after the Trollmire the player would be directed to Derth. There should be some lore about finding a person who can tell stories of Maj Eyal.

Now, there could be a unique "Storyteller" in Derth that shares some advice on where to go - or not to go - depending on the player level - and class. (Similar to the tips when loading the game, but more context sensitive.) A kind of guide to the early game. Storyteller could also be race-specific (class-specific? mages, rogues...) (with specific lore) and located in appropriate place (Derth, Shatur, Iron Throne...)

Also, the Storyteller could activate the Dark Crypt quest. Go talk to him, one day he chooses to tell you about it (or: news/rumours....), go explore and sooner than later the crypt comes about. The same with the assassin lord. And if one chooses to ignore him... these could come up just as well, just less likely.)

Bottom line: Interactive advisors and more lore!

Oh, and another thing. A primer about Maj Eyal to the player - nothing too spoilerish, but something beyond just taking up a character. Half a page lore about the history and current state of affairs as the character sees it. A hint of a growing gloom and a mention about the Dreadfell, perhaps.

[phantomglider]

Basically: To begin with new player is given only one choise:
Cormac, an offensive fighter (berserk) or a defensive fighter (bulwark). Everything else is an unlock.

Nooooo way. This is comically overrestrictive. I've seen people coming in from other roguelikes express displeasure at the unlock mechanic but at least they have the ability to make some kind of meaningful choice when they first boot up.

[bricks]

That doesn't really encourage exploration, so much as mandate it. It's hard to even know where to find some of those zones if you don't start as a Thaloren/Shaloren.

I'd be for more storytelling/direction, given the nonexistence of the plot up until the moment you find the Staff, but it's not really a big issue, nor is it something I'd expect from the genre. Apart from the nuclear warhead adventurer parties, the world map isn't that dangerous to explore.

[Frumple]

I wouldn't mind some more set early game lore giving some hints and suchlike for early-mid game stuff. The storyteller guy might be interesting, though ones specific the local areas in the respective towns (Derth: Trollmire/Kor'Pul/Maze/OF, Southern Elftown: Its two zones, sandworm lair, Northern elftown: Its two, daikara, zigur, L.Hope: Dwarftown, etc. Stuff like that.) would be nice. Tying melinda or the trapped quest into that would be a no, though, unless only on the lowest difficulties. Those lose a lot of their challenge when you can specifically prepare for them (Trapped has become a cakewalk since it was regulated to certain areas of the map, ferex.).

Tying up even more of the game's content into the unlock system would make me want to strangle a kitten, though. I'd rather the option be given to just click a button and unlock everything. Maybe even make it toggleable. Some folks want that. Some of us have a frothing hatred of unlocks. I'd love that button, mucking around with the profile to unlock stuff is troublesome. Beyond that, exploration should be encouraged by treasures and neat things (carrots) instead of locked doors (sticks) in the form of locked content.

Tying into that, yes, T4's complex but it's also very translucent. Rather than gimping the new player's choices, I'd rather see better introductory material or clarified talent descriptions and so forth so that people experimenting have an easier time realizing what works together and why. Perhaps a button or toggle in the level-up screen that provides scaling information (in the form of X [stat] providing Y [improvement] and possibly full info on all talent levels (So you can see what it's like with one point in it, or five, and so forth). An updated tutorial would probably help with this, as would a sort of "hint mode" difficulty setting -- possibly as a toggle or modifier to the standard difficulties, with hints tailored to each.

[SageAcrin]

Keep in mind, a new player can be experienced with Roguelikes.

They may appreciate some choice as an option, as well as a way to really get a feel for what the game is like overall.

[HousePet]

Some lore describing the next set of areas you are going to be directed to would be good.
It seems a bit weird when Into the Darkness pops up and you haven't heard or seen these locations yet.

[Zonk]

I know this will come off as a bit strong but...
Definetely NO to making more stuff unlockable.
Also, giving unlocks just for walking into a town? That feels silly to me, as if one wanted to put in unlocks just because.

Assuming by default new ToME can't players can't handle anything different from a melee fighter is just well...awkard. Could be seen as offensive by the same new players one wants to help, even.
Yes some of these classes are a bit more complicated, but I don't think just disabling them is the 'proper' way to help new people.

Something VERY helpful however that I would enjoy, however, and that has been suggested in the past - class specific tutorials. Doing that for EVERY class might be significant work, but even if it's just per metaclass it would help.

[Sradac]

Now, there could be a unique "Storyteller" in Derth that shares some advice on where to go - or not to go - depending on the player level - and class.

We already have that, its called "in-game chat"

[outolumo]

OK, to sum it up: storyteller NPC:s are favoured, more lockups don't get too many votes.

We already have that, its called "in-game chat"

There are three problems with that:

1) Assumes on-line
2) Assumes that a New Player actually notices it.
3) Has issues with scaling.

[bricks]

Actually, a literal storyteller might not be needed. The quest log basically serves the same purpose, and doesn't require you to track down any NPCs to add new info. You can cleanly abstract away the information gathering by assuming that the player character has in-universe knowledge and automatically picks up on rumors and such.

[outolumo]

Of course its not needed. Obviously the game is playable as it is. The Quest Log does much of the same thing, but Storyteller could give other useful advice, like avoid adventure parties, and tell to go explore to certain directions... The idea is to make the game as easy to step into as possible. Storyteller is an interface device, that might be more intuitive that quest log.

Besides, it just sounds right that you would go brag to someone that you just killed Bill

[bricks]

True, but thinking in terms of player attention span - it's better if the information is on-demand and succinct, as opposed to in-universe dialogue trees that have to be tracked down.

[outolumo]

As I said, I'm talking about new players - the kind of info the storyteller provides is self evident after a few days. But for one, who has just started to explore Maj'Eyal info that is embedded to the world might actually be easier to find. Ultimately, it adds to the world the same way as lore.

[Dwindlehop]

Tying into that, yes, T4's complex but it's also very translucent. Rather than gimping the new player's choices, I'd rather see better introductory material or clarified talent descriptions and so forth so that people experimenting have an easier time realizing what works together and why. Perhaps a button or toggle in the level-up screen that provides scaling information (in the form of X [stat] providing Y [improvement] and possibly full info on all talent levels (So you can see what it's like with one point in it, or five, and so forth).

Yes, more transparency please! After spending a few weeks with TOME4, I am resorting to out of game resources to figure out how to actually build my chars. Everything would be much more approachable with the game engine doing all the math for me on possible choices.