Tie stamina with con

[tiger_eye]

Sure, and this also allows for battles of attrition for the player and NPC. I've had a fair number of battles that were standstills (or worse!) until the enemy was low on stamina. Then I would unleash my fury of stamina talents and kill the bugger. *cough* vaulted Borfast *cough*

I'm not suggesting things are perfect, but they're not bad the way they are. This game was developed via tweaks, modifications, and wholesale changes, so suggestions are always welcome, especially interesting suggestions that add depth to gameplay without being overly complicated.

[HousePet]

I like the split between Con and Will. Stamina is primarily a physical stat, but you do need the willpower to get the most out of your body.

Con doesn't get used much for talent requirements. I've thought it odd that Combat Veteran was Str or Dex based. When it was mostly about being tough in battle. Maybe it could be changed to Con?

[aardvark]

Unending Frenzy in the Combat Veteran tree is also a good way to address shortages. It gives 4 * talent level Stamina per kill and is a class skill of all warrior, rogue, and wilder classes (though locked for several). That's a good source vs. common enemies. Bosses, of course, are another matter but they're supposed to be harder.

[grayswandir]

I could see adding a point of stamina per point of con for thematic reasons, but I think the game works better with stamina tied to willpower.

I really like the idea of changing Combat Veteran to con based. I think even better would be to change it to the higher of con and wil, since 3 of the 4 talents are similar to willpower's bonuses anyway.

The engine doesn't really support tying the first two combat veteran talents to category mastery right now, although the spell save would be pretty easy to do.

And yeah, unending frenzy is better than it looks.



I think the real solution here is, instead of making it so you can just dump all your points into con and ignore wil, is to make wil (and cun) more of an attractive option in the first place. I suggest making several existing warrior-themed talents run off of mindpower for some effects. For instance, maybe shattering shout should have a radius of 3 + mindpower/(20 - talent level), or have juggernaut's duration scale with mindpower. Basically, a slight nerf (or none at all if the talent in question is already weak) to these talents if you don't invest in mindpower at all, but have these talents be stronger than they currently can get if you actually invest in wil and cun. That way you actually have an incentive to diversify beyond just having more stamina or critical rate.

[laru]

I think the real solution here is, instead of making it so you can just dump all your points into con and ignore wil, is to make wil (and cun) more of an attractive option in the first place. I suggest making several existing warrior-themed talents run off of mindpower for some effects. For instance, maybe shattering shout should have a radius of 3 + mindpower/(20 - talent level), or have juggernaut's duration scale with mindpower. Basically, a slight nerf (or none at all if the talent in question is already weak) to these talents if you don't invest in mindpower at all, but have these talents be stronger than they currently can get if you actually invest in wil and cun. That way you actually have an incentive to diversify beyond just having more stamina or critical rate.

I very, very strongly beg of the powers in charge, do NOT do these kind of changes in the main game!

You see, I might be a minority here, but not all of us enjoy that much the "character planning/development" part of the game. I'm in it for the epic tactical battles which I encounter nearly every time I find time to play this game. I want to run my toons up to a point where they have a decent skill/ability set so I can enjoy the game the way I prefer it, with as little excess hassle as possible. (I favor the melee fighter characters - berzerkers/bulwarks/brawlers - because they are sturdy enough to actually have an interesting tactical battle, instead of playing hide-and-seek with the opponent)

The above quoted solution is something I call "forced complex character development". It forces me to endlessly wonder about if this and that is better than that and this etc. etc. Now, while I understand that many people enjoy this kind of thing, and I'm also in no way against diversity and complexity of options per se, I'd like to remind you that there are a huge amount of different race/class combinations in TOME, and not all of them need to be that way. Please let the fighter classes be relatively straightforward.

[Avianpilot]

I think the real solution here is, instead of making it so you can just dump all your points into con and ignore wil, is to make wil (and cun) more of an attractive option in the first place. I suggest making several existing warrior-themed talents run off of mindpower for some effects. For instance, maybe shattering shout should have a radius of 3 + mindpower/(20 - talent level), or have juggernaut's duration scale with mindpower. Basically, a slight nerf (or none at all if the talent in question is already weak) to these talents if you don't invest in mindpower at all, but have these talents be stronger than they currently can get if you actually invest in wil and cun. That way you actually have an incentive to diversify beyond just having more stamina or critical rate.

I very, very strongly beg of the powers in charge, do NOT do these kind of changes in the main game!

Seconded. Perhaps it is just my perception of it, but instead of 'diversifying options' I see this as just making the fighter classes reliant on more stats. Their skills (referring specifically to the fighter class itself here) rely on str, dex, and con as they are at the moment, and I'd be very much against having to include wil and cun into the mix just so they can have effective talents.

You see, I might be a minority here, but not all of us enjoy that much the "character planning/development" part of the game. I'm in it for the epic tactical battles which I encounter nearly every time I find time to play this game. I want to run my toons up to a point where they have a decent skill/ability set so I can enjoy the game the way I prefer it, with as little excess hassle as possible. (I favor the melee fighter characters - berzerkers/bulwarks/brawlers - because they are sturdy enough to actually have an interesting tactical battle, instead of playing hide-and-seek with the opponent)

Nothing I can add to this -- this is what I want (and currently get) out of those classes, and I think spreading out their stat requirements would break that.

[grayswandir]

Seconded. Perhaps it is just my perception of it, but instead of 'diversifying options' I see this as just making the fighter classes reliant on more stats. Their skills (referring specifically to the fighter class itself here) rely on str, dex, and con as they are at the moment, and I'd be very much against having to include wil and cun into the mix just so they can have effective talents.

Eh? No, I didn't mean for this to make fighters need more stats. A pure str/dex/con fighter should always be the simplest and most effective build choice. I just wanted to make going wil or cun actually viable.

The above quoted solution is something I call "forced complex character development". It forces me to endlessly wonder about if this and that is better than that and this etc. etc. Now, while I understand that many people enjoy this kind of thing, and I'm also in no way against diversity and complexity of options per se, I'd like to remind you that there are a huge amount of different race/class combinations in TOME, and not all of them need to be that way. Please let the fighter classes be relatively straightforward.

I don't really see how adding more options to fighters is "forcing" you to do these things - could you perhaps go into more detail?

And if you want a straightforward class just pick archmage or anorithil. They need magic, and uh, more magic.

[Frumple]

Archmagi really want willpower, though, and both of them benefit heavily from cunning. Con never hurts, either~

Corruptor's somewhere in between. They like a little bit of willpower to go with the magic, and then junkloads of cunning. All crit all the time.

Closest to a one-stat class right now is probably either solipsist or mindslayer, I'd say, and both are more willpower/cunning than just willpower, hum.

Anyway. Given how easily it is to lowball dex without issue, going willpower or cunning on the melee classes is very viable. My elfzerkers always max strength and con and then split points between willpower and cunning, to keep the critting shattering impact bloodbath going all day every day. Dex might get some points in it once the base physcrit is around 50%, but only if I didn't go antimagic.

I'd say the "weakest" stat right now for most melee classes, is, in fact, dex, not con (excepting magic for the classes that just have no use for it), simply because of how easy it is to simply ignore dex as a stat because of the various accuracy boosting talents and egos. Unless you throw on precise strikes for the dex scaling crit, I'd usually prefer to have more willpower or cunning for more talent spam or more damage, respectively. The saves benefit doesn't hurt~

Antimagic makes it even more of a no-brainer. Dump the dex for willpower, tank tooralooralay.

Which I guess what I'm getting at is that most classes benefit from not being "straightforward". It's possible to get by just bulling through with a straight class line (str/dex/con, mag/wil, whatever), but it's usually less optimal than a more diverse strategy. This. This is a good thing. We don't want brainless bump class equivalents if we can avoid it, yes?

Exception being alchemist, I guess. They really do just need more spellpower and maybe some spellcrit.

[laru]

I don't really see how adding more options to fighters is "forcing" you to do these things - could you perhaps go into more detail?

Short answer: because, if you make existing warrior talents run off mindpower, as you suggested, It would make my current preferable build inferior, and I'd have to dabble with it in a lot more complicated environment. Adding more options for mindpower-based warrior classes would be whole different thing..

Longer answer: as for now,with my warriors, I'm raising STR and CON by default, and then I have a choice of rising DEX for more accuracy/defence/combat tech boost or rising WIL for more stamina (or CUN for more crit for bloodthirsty berzerkers (rok!)). Which really is a no-brainer for me, because as it is, you don't really need extra stamina for warriors - there are workarounds. I started the whole thread because it seems funny for me that warriors (and rogues too, I guess) are not rising the stat that affects one of their main resource, barring for reasons other than rising said stat, such as antimagic. Now, if you'd make several of their high skills run off mindpower..

And if you want a straightforward class just pick archmage or anorithil. They need magic, and uh, more magic.

But I don't want to! I enjoy playing with the warrior builds much more than the caster builds. Me smash!

[SageAcrin]

Actually, Cunning and Will are currently viable builds for fighter types-you just have to find ways to convert your advantages.

Want a Willpower non-AM fighter? Get Shattering Impact, cap it out, and enjoy your large damage bonus to things whenever you need it. No, it isn't as good as Con would be, but there is an entirely different sidegrade advantage to it.

Cunning's damage boost vs Con's HP boost is also debatable.

Basically, I would go as far to say there is only one non-optimal stat for physical fighters in general(though in specific, stat priority changes), and that's Magic. And next version, some uberskills are going to shake that up a little too.

Basically, it's fine as it is, to me. People may get low Stamina amounts from not building Will, but there will still be levels granting Stamina and equipment granting Will, and equipment that specifically grants Stamina, if you need to fix that hole. And people that go AM get several abilities and higher Stamina to make up for their lower accuracy or health. Seems reasonable. The standard Str/Dex/Con build has cleared many times for Berserkers/Bulwarks, and I'm not really sure why it'd need that buff.

[Canderel]

I'll create an addon.

In a bulleted form, what would you want to see in it?

[Canderel]

Created. Here: http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/consti ... mina-buffs

[laru]

Thank you, Candeler! I'll try that out right away and try to give some feedback later on.