One thing I never really understood, is why stamina increases with willpower, which is a mental stat? Physical stamina is a physical attribute which is dependent on your conditioning level, aka CON in tome.
This would also make sense gameplaywise - barring the antimagic route, melee classes have no reason to invest in the stat that raises their primary resource. As it is for now, an archmage, if he/she would acquire a stamina-based skill (from an escort for ex.) will have a lot larger stamina pool than a berserker of similar level. This does not make any sense.
Tie stamina with con
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Re: Tie stamina with con
I have also proposed it. Even con improving stamina regen could be nice.
Fact is stamina all struggles for stamina.
Fact is stamina all struggles for stamina.
Re: Tie stamina with con
Air capacity, too. Ideally both should be largely influenced by Con and, to a MUCH lesser extent, by Wil.
This has been suggested in the past(http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=3 ... on#p131703 for example)but I don't think DarkGod gave his opinion on the matter.
This has been suggested in the past(http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=3 ... on#p131703 for example)but I don't think DarkGod gave his opinion on the matter.
ToME online profile: http://te4.org/users/zonk
Addons (most likely obsolete): Wights, Trolls, Starting prodigy, Alternate save/resistance system
Addons (most likely obsolete): Wights, Trolls, Starting prodigy, Alternate save/resistance system
Re: Tie stamina with con
If it were tied to stamina I think it should rise at a lower rate - say 2 or 3 stamina per Con. 5 per Con (as it is with willpower) would be crazy.
Re: Tie stamina with con
Yeah, the last time this came up, we successfully convinced DarkGod to increase the amount of stamina gained by Wil.
I think it's a hard sell to move stamina to Con, though, especially with the upcoming Prodigies for which plenty of builds may want a Wil-based Prodigy. For the "generic" melee fighter, all stats are useful and viable except Magic (unless you get new talents or talent trees that are magic-based). Variety and meaningful choices are generally good. If you make Con better and Wil worse, then you degrade the available options. Re-balancing what Wil and Con do may be an option, but this steps on the toes of pretty much all classes, so balance and consensus may be difficult to find.
As for why stamina increases with Wil... consider two characters that are otherwise equal except that one is lazy and one is not. The lazy one will do less (and, hence, will have less stamina). Thus, willpower also represents the ability to push oneself further.
I think it's a hard sell to move stamina to Con, though, especially with the upcoming Prodigies for which plenty of builds may want a Wil-based Prodigy. For the "generic" melee fighter, all stats are useful and viable except Magic (unless you get new talents or talent trees that are magic-based). Variety and meaningful choices are generally good. If you make Con better and Wil worse, then you degrade the available options. Re-balancing what Wil and Con do may be an option, but this steps on the toes of pretty much all classes, so balance and consensus may be difficult to find.
As for why stamina increases with Wil... consider two characters that are otherwise equal except that one is lazy and one is not. The lazy one will do less (and, hence, will have less stamina). Thus, willpower also represents the ability to push oneself further.
darkgod wrote:OMFG tiger eye you are my hero!
Re: Tie stamina with con
I actually think stamina has more to do with willpower then constitution anyway. I'm a distance runner & it seems to me that sheer blunt stuborness will get you further then "physical" fitness.
Most melee character have talents that increase stamina regen. Certainly my beserkers tend to pump out a talent attack every round once they have adrenaline surge & bloodbath.
Most melee character have talents that increase stamina regen. Certainly my beserkers tend to pump out a talent attack every round once they have adrenaline surge & bloodbath.
Re: Tie stamina with con
Yeah, I agree.Grey wrote:If it were tied to stamina I think it should rise at a lower rate - say 2 or 3 stamina per Con. 5 per Con (as it is with willpower) would be crazy.
I think a conversion to con would need to be a split. X from Con (maybe 2) the rest from Willpower.
Raising Con if the ratio was 5 to 1 would be a no brainer.
Re: Tie stamina with con
Debates about reality are irrelevant. It's about what makes sense in game terms, not realism.
Re: Tie stamina with con
Agreed. For me, it would make much more sense, that melee fighters primary focus would be rising the physical attributes (STR/CON/DEX), and only hybrids and special builds (AM for example) would consider swapping one of them for a mental stat. Although, it's not THAT big of a deal, especially when it's really easy to make yourself an addon which does that..Grey wrote:Debates about reality are irrelevant. It's about what makes sense in game terms, not realism.
Re: Tie stamina with con
I don't see how this would be good thing. While it's simpler, it makes your decision at level-up a little boring. Makes equipment choices less interesting too.laru wrote: For me, it would make much more sense, that melee fighters primary focus would be rising the physical attributes (STR/CON/DEX)
Re: Tie stamina with con
Heaven forbid that physical fighters have to choose between accuracy(when there's a secondary source available in Combat Training and most characters can further pump this with skills like Perfect Strike), HP(when physical classes tend to have +2/+3, the highest base life modifiers), and extra Stamina(when it is reasonably possible for any Stamina class in the game to go through without pumping Will).
They might have to actually decide what minor traits to customize. How horrible!
(If it's not clear, I like that...triality? as it stands. All three stats are important, none of the three are required... so tool your build to which one you value most for that class and build idea.)
They might have to actually decide what minor traits to customize. How horrible!
(If it's not clear, I like that...triality? as it stands. All three stats are important, none of the three are required... so tool your build to which one you value most for that class and build idea.)
Re: Tie stamina with con
For me, the biggest problem is not really the maxsttamina, but more the regen.
The base regen talent gains are.too small. I'd like to see the 0.5 x by the tree's mastery. So those with 1.3 mastery gets 0.5x1.3 regen. Then let con give 0.02 regen base, so you have 2 base at 100 con.
The base regen talent gains are.too small. I'd like to see the 0.5 x by the tree's mastery. So those with 1.3 mastery gets 0.5x1.3 regen. Then let con give 0.02 regen base, so you have 2 base at 100 con.
Re: Tie stamina with con
Oh, yeah, regens are kinda low, especially lategame.
I wouldn't mind seeing that idea.
I wouldn't mind seeing that idea.
Re: Tie stamina with con
A previous, very similar discussion:
http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27250
Stamina regen talents are too low? Seriously?! Rogue trappers are probably the only class I regularly need to keep an eye on stamina. Most other melee (including non-trapping rogues) classes have ample stamina and regen the vast majority of the time--the main exception coming during prolonged heated battles, which is where you would expect stamina may become an issue. Plus, melee fighters typically have effective bump-attacks that require no stamina. Still, though, if you fully invest in stamina talents, then you'll have plenty of stamina--more so if you also invest in Wil.
Anyway, we've been through this discussion before, and I know not everybody sees eye-to-eye. My main sticking point is that I want Wil to be a viable and somewhat compelling stat for melee classes (even if they're not anti-magic), which is basically what I said in my first post in this thread.
http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27250
Stamina regen talents are too low? Seriously?! Rogue trappers are probably the only class I regularly need to keep an eye on stamina. Most other melee (including non-trapping rogues) classes have ample stamina and regen the vast majority of the time--the main exception coming during prolonged heated battles, which is where you would expect stamina may become an issue. Plus, melee fighters typically have effective bump-attacks that require no stamina. Still, though, if you fully invest in stamina talents, then you'll have plenty of stamina--more so if you also invest in Wil.
Anyway, we've been through this discussion before, and I know not everybody sees eye-to-eye. My main sticking point is that I want Wil to be a viable and somewhat compelling stat for melee classes (even if they're not anti-magic), which is basically what I said in my first post in this thread.
darkgod wrote:OMFG tiger eye you are my hero!
Re: Tie stamina with con
Well, I meant more that base Stamina regen is-assuming no Will building, and no equipment boosts-something that can take 300-400 turns to fully fill your Stamina bar on base, at endgame. HP isn't much better, but you can more easily heal that. Even with 3 regen a turn it still takes quite a long time.
It doesn't bother me, it's just worth commenting that that is quite a long time.
It doesn't bother me, it's just worth commenting that that is quite a long time.