This idea is for a fourth game mode, alongside Campaign, Arena, and Infinite Dungeon. The general concept is the similar to Angband (single town, single dungeon, respawning levels), with a few small changes.
Stores:
-There will be stores for all the standard stuff (5x weapons, 3x armour, 2x infusions etc...) in the town.
-Store scumming will be addressed in that they do not restock over time, you must pay a (medium sized) fee to have each of them restock.
Trainers:
-You gain access to trainers as you clear deeper levels of the dungeon. For example, you would be able to buy combat training at dlvl 5, and antimagic at dlvl 30.
The dungeon:
-It would level quite closely with depth, perhaps at 1 monster level per 2 depth. There would not be tier 5 items and lvl 35 orc vaults in the first levels, like the ID.
- no rod of recall. (see below)
- Stairs go both up and down. This allows you to easily dive to the depth you want. You also get a special "dive" talent to instantly reach the depth you want (including town)
- level generation is special, and somewhat similar to farportals. Each level has a few properties: map generator, tileset, monsters, and other stuff. Each of these has a chance to not be rerolled when switching levels, maybe 75%. For example, if you are leaving a cave-shaped, forest-tiled map with minor demons, rodents, orcs, and plants as enemies, thee is a 75% chance the next level will have a cave shape, 75% forest, 75% minor demons etc...
Ideas?
Iron Prison game mode
Moderator: Moderator
Iron Prison game mode
Last edited by lukep on Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Iron Prison game mode
Sounds pretty good to me.
Why no Rod, though? You could Rod of Recall in, well, Angband, to the town level. Anyone that really wants to walk to the top probably will, it's not as if anything more threatening than what they've been through exists, and it wouldn't help them get back down to the same depth anyhow. (As the ToME Rod doesn't work like that.)
Why no Rod, though? You could Rod of Recall in, well, Angband, to the town level. Anyone that really wants to walk to the top probably will, it's not as if anything more threatening than what they've been through exists, and it wouldn't help them get back down to the same depth anyhow. (As the ToME Rod doesn't work like that.)
Re: Iron Prison game mode
I thought no rod of recall because I wanted a way to quickly dive (connected stairs, dive talent), and that removed the need for it, IMO. Also, it could be a while before you met the first boss, and I didn't want to give it at birth.
Re: Iron Prison game mode
Ah, if you're just replacing the need for it, that works too.
Re: Iron Prison game mode
Cool idea. I like the idea of the Infinite Dungeon but practically it seems more like a funny way to die, so this would make for a great alternative. I'm not so sure about the facilitated dungeon diving, and not needing to search for the stairs just sounds wrong, IMO. What if this played off the Farportal concept - you're tracking down a rogue Farportal explorer, who has torn portals from here out to... wherever. Once you reach the "end" of one Farportal, you are sent back to your hub - maybe another rediscovered fortress - and the next portal is unlocked. Your control rod lets you return to your fortress at any time, but this costs some fortress energy. Fortress energy can also be used to fabricate equipment, which would just be like a special shop dialog. You get a large amount of energy for clearing a portal, plus transmog energy. Energy could also be used to get other rewards, like unlocking combat training, generating Merchant-style randarts, and restocking the fabricator.
I do really like the idea of basing the next level's generation off of the previous level, and I think that could be applied on either a per-level or a per-farportal basis.
I do really like the idea of basing the next level's generation off of the previous level, and I think that could be applied on either a per-level or a per-farportal basis.
Sorry about all the parentheses (sometimes I like to clarify things).
Re: Iron Prison game mode
I like the overall idea, but I think it needs more themeing. I'd suggest a little (very little) plot, and some accompanying changes. Centuries/millenia ago, a large band of explorers (of every race) stumbled upon a farportal maze. After exploring it for a very long time, and getting thoroughly lost, they settled down in the middle of it and founded a village. Now, the village is a town, supported by exploring through the 'nearby' farportals for resources, but no contact has been made with the outside world since it's founding. You are the latest of many adventurers to try to find a way out of the maze.
At the beginning, you are given a portal-stone, which will open a 'nearportal' between your current location and the town. The portal is persistent, but only you can use it, so no townspeople can follow you into the maze and no monsters can use it to invade the town, but you can run to town and then head back to wherever you came from. You are NOT given an orb of scrying (or any racial talents that replace it) and must instead take any unidentified loot back to town and pay (a small fee) to have it identified. Since we're only talking artifacts here, I don't think it'd be a big cost, but it'd add a bit of flavor and a reason to return to town from time to time.
The town represents all races and accepts all practices. Necromancy, corruptors, and anti-magic exist side-by-side (kind of like they do for orcs) because all are necessary for the town to survive. The yeeks aren't connected to The Way, but rather to other yeeks in the town, so same abilities, but slightly different themes. Undead minions are common, so skeletons and ghouls are available.
The farportal maze is a true MAZE. That means that there can be multiple ways out of a level, or there may be none and you have to backtrack. Maybe in some levels things have to be done to activate the next farportal. If we did it like this, it wouldn't be necessary for one map to be themed off the previous, but it would be interesting. It'd be nice to see a 'consistent' dungeon that also slowly evolved.
Oh, and, randomly, there is an end. We may want to give it a minimum level that it may occur at, like through 30 farportals, but after that point, it may occur at 31 or 131. It ends when you make it out, to find... whatever.
At the beginning, you are given a portal-stone, which will open a 'nearportal' between your current location and the town. The portal is persistent, but only you can use it, so no townspeople can follow you into the maze and no monsters can use it to invade the town, but you can run to town and then head back to wherever you came from. You are NOT given an orb of scrying (or any racial talents that replace it) and must instead take any unidentified loot back to town and pay (a small fee) to have it identified. Since we're only talking artifacts here, I don't think it'd be a big cost, but it'd add a bit of flavor and a reason to return to town from time to time.
The town represents all races and accepts all practices. Necromancy, corruptors, and anti-magic exist side-by-side (kind of like they do for orcs) because all are necessary for the town to survive. The yeeks aren't connected to The Way, but rather to other yeeks in the town, so same abilities, but slightly different themes. Undead minions are common, so skeletons and ghouls are available.
The farportal maze is a true MAZE. That means that there can be multiple ways out of a level, or there may be none and you have to backtrack. Maybe in some levels things have to be done to activate the next farportal. If we did it like this, it wouldn't be necessary for one map to be themed off the previous, but it would be interesting. It'd be nice to see a 'consistent' dungeon that also slowly evolved.
Oh, and, randomly, there is an end. We may want to give it a minimum level that it may occur at, like through 30 farportals, but after that point, it may occur at 31 or 131. It ends when you make it out, to find... whatever.
Re: Iron Prison game mode
I like the "farportal maze" concept - I might suggest that instead of finding your way out, you find your way to the creature from whom the maze sprang, and that defeating it gives you a way to not just escape but let the inhabitants of the town do likewise. For a somewhat more interesting story, what if the inhabitants of the town don't really *want* to escape?
Unlocked by going through a certain minimum (large) number of farportals in a single game?
Unlocked by going through a certain minimum (large) number of farportals in a single game?
Re: Iron Prison game mode
Thanks for the feedback.
I'm hesitant to go the farportal route; IMO it would make the levels too disconnected from each other, thematically.
re: rod of recall, diving, and not needing to find the stairs. My (new) idea for this is to have 2-4 macguffins (useless plot items) scattered around the lowest level you have reached. In order to reach the next level, you must find all of them. Leaving and reentering a level will replace any of them that you have found, as well as rerolling how many and keeping the larger of the new roll and the old amount. This would slightly punish stairscumming for a quick exit, as after a few tries there would be a very good chance that you would need to find the max amount (4).
re: plot and theme. I think that having a (small and unobtrusive) plot would be good, but I couldn't think of one, so I omitted it. For an ending, I'm not sure if it needs it; it would be nice, but it may come after the base is developed.
A maze (in one world) could be awesome. I would see it as multiple (single level) zones, each linked together by a worldmap, and slowly changing from one location to another (eg, close = low level, far = high level, near one spot is many orcs, near another is Horrors, ice monsters to the north, caves to the east, or labyrinths, or slime-tiled etc...) The goal could be to find several bosses and kill them. While I really like this idea, it is quite different than what I had in mind for this game mode (of course, unless I end up coding it, my opinion doesn't count for any more than anyone else's).
Oh, and for an unlock (if it makes it into the main game instead of as an addon), I was thinking reaching floor 20 in the ID.
I'm hesitant to go the farportal route; IMO it would make the levels too disconnected from each other, thematically.
re: rod of recall, diving, and not needing to find the stairs. My (new) idea for this is to have 2-4 macguffins (useless plot items) scattered around the lowest level you have reached. In order to reach the next level, you must find all of them. Leaving and reentering a level will replace any of them that you have found, as well as rerolling how many and keeping the larger of the new roll and the old amount. This would slightly punish stairscumming for a quick exit, as after a few tries there would be a very good chance that you would need to find the max amount (4).
re: plot and theme. I think that having a (small and unobtrusive) plot would be good, but I couldn't think of one, so I omitted it. For an ending, I'm not sure if it needs it; it would be nice, but it may come after the base is developed.
A maze (in one world) could be awesome. I would see it as multiple (single level) zones, each linked together by a worldmap, and slowly changing from one location to another (eg, close = low level, far = high level, near one spot is many orcs, near another is Horrors, ice monsters to the north, caves to the east, or labyrinths, or slime-tiled etc...) The goal could be to find several bosses and kill them. While I really like this idea, it is quite different than what I had in mind for this game mode (of course, unless I end up coding it, my opinion doesn't count for any more than anyone else's).
Oh, and for an unlock (if it makes it into the main game instead of as an addon), I was thinking reaching floor 20 in the ID.
Re: Iron Prison game mode
I love this idea. I've been trying to think of a decent game type myself but failing due to lack of creativity and ideas. This sounds like a flashback to the (i think) original console roguelike Fatal Labyrinth, or even the first Diablo, but more random.
Or, a more fleshed out infinite dungeon without infinity. Make sure to make the endboss really scary! Maybe make him take up four tiles for extra scariness
Or, a more fleshed out infinite dungeon without infinity. Make sure to make the endboss really scary! Maybe make him take up four tiles for extra scariness
Re: Iron Prison game mode
Sirrocco, I was thinking that the player could be carrying a rune that would open a permanent farportal between the town and the outside, so that once you find a way out you could link the town to the world. The 'me-only' portal the player creates to return to the town would be that way to prevent the town from being invaded by monsters behind you.
The 'monster from whom the maze sprang' is an interesting idea. It would suggest a final boss something like the fortress boss, a twisted and corrupted Sher'Tul.
The idea of a plot where some or all of the town doesn't want what you're doing is interesting. If it were all of the town, I'd say it'd be more like ID, fleeing from the town and running to the maze. If it were some of the town, I could see some complex plot developments depending on the player choices. If you meant that the main plot should be something other than escaping from the maze, then I'm not sure what else.
Lukep, if the farportals are permanent, then the levels of the maze would be at least a little linked. Maybe, if we make them less farportals and more 'nearportals', we could conceptualize it as each portal only jumping a distance of tens of miles (and maybe through mountains or the like) and thus link wildlife and zones more closely.
The macguffins idea works well with a portal maze. You may need to activate each portal you find to get further into the maze. I prefer this to be occasional, rather than routine, since that would mean the levels aren't permanently linked to each other (in lore) and thus the ecosystems would be more separate. For stairs, though, I don't really think it works. Why would every level of a dungeon be independently locked or sealed by magic artifacts? The only option I can see here is that, at the bottom of the dungeon is something INCREDIBLY powerful. MAYBE it's an artifact you are supposed to find. MAYBE it's a sealed god or demon your people worship and have dedicated themselves to free. But PROBABLY, it's a powerful monster that would be the final boss.
If I understand your world-maze idea, what you mean is a world map that is maze-like, with periodic (probably frequent) blockages that are dungeons, which you have to pass through and come out the other side. If you do this, I'd highly recommend making the teleport option something like the Rod of Recall, so that you don't have to go from dungeon to world to dungeon dozens of times to get back to where you were. The overall idea sounds interesting, but you'd have to be careful. I'd also suggest that each dungeon become a 3-level dungeon like the farportal dungeons are. One level each would just seem tedious to me.
The 'monster from whom the maze sprang' is an interesting idea. It would suggest a final boss something like the fortress boss, a twisted and corrupted Sher'Tul.
The idea of a plot where some or all of the town doesn't want what you're doing is interesting. If it were all of the town, I'd say it'd be more like ID, fleeing from the town and running to the maze. If it were some of the town, I could see some complex plot developments depending on the player choices. If you meant that the main plot should be something other than escaping from the maze, then I'm not sure what else.
Lukep, if the farportals are permanent, then the levels of the maze would be at least a little linked. Maybe, if we make them less farportals and more 'nearportals', we could conceptualize it as each portal only jumping a distance of tens of miles (and maybe through mountains or the like) and thus link wildlife and zones more closely.
The macguffins idea works well with a portal maze. You may need to activate each portal you find to get further into the maze. I prefer this to be occasional, rather than routine, since that would mean the levels aren't permanently linked to each other (in lore) and thus the ecosystems would be more separate. For stairs, though, I don't really think it works. Why would every level of a dungeon be independently locked or sealed by magic artifacts? The only option I can see here is that, at the bottom of the dungeon is something INCREDIBLY powerful. MAYBE it's an artifact you are supposed to find. MAYBE it's a sealed god or demon your people worship and have dedicated themselves to free. But PROBABLY, it's a powerful monster that would be the final boss.
If I understand your world-maze idea, what you mean is a world map that is maze-like, with periodic (probably frequent) blockages that are dungeons, which you have to pass through and come out the other side. If you do this, I'd highly recommend making the teleport option something like the Rod of Recall, so that you don't have to go from dungeon to world to dungeon dozens of times to get back to where you were. The overall idea sounds interesting, but you'd have to be careful. I'd also suggest that each dungeon become a 3-level dungeon like the farportal dungeons are. One level each would just seem tedious to me.
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necronomist
- Wayist
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- Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 9:25 pm
Re: Iron Prison game mode
Just to chime in and say that I would love to see a new game mode that focuses on exploring randomly generated levels (based on the farportals code), with a central hub that the player returns to, as suggested by bricks. A big selling point for me would be that the game mode would have an ending-the idea that you need to find and defeat a number of bosses in order to advance and finish the game is very appealing. Maybe have 5 'lieutenant' bosses that need to be cleared at lvls 5,15,25... and 4 'captain' bosses at lvls 10,20,30... with a final boss at lvl 50. When a 'captain' boss is eliminated, the shops at the hub are restocked with level-appropriate gear.
One could take the idea further and include a (randomly-generated) overland map with areas that include 'dungeons' of varying difficulty-a game called 'A valley without wind' has some good ideas on how this could be implemented.
However, I think more important would be to have a large number of 'themed' components that can be combined to generate interesting and coherent 'dungeons'. So for example, you could have a 'Forest'-themed dungeon that could include NPCs drawn either from the 'Beast' set, the 'Thaloren' set, the 'Orc' set or the 'Shaloren' set. Each set would include a number of already existing monsters and NPCs and its own rules to generate rares-for example the 'Thaloren' set would include normal NPCs that use EQ and Stamina-based talents, and elite and rares that are based on Wilder classes, Archers and Fighters (Berserkers, etc). The boss of the level could either be randomly generated, or one of the already existing bosses, scaled to level (within preset level limits).
One could take the idea further and include a (randomly-generated) overland map with areas that include 'dungeons' of varying difficulty-a game called 'A valley without wind' has some good ideas on how this could be implemented.
However, I think more important would be to have a large number of 'themed' components that can be combined to generate interesting and coherent 'dungeons'. So for example, you could have a 'Forest'-themed dungeon that could include NPCs drawn either from the 'Beast' set, the 'Thaloren' set, the 'Orc' set or the 'Shaloren' set. Each set would include a number of already existing monsters and NPCs and its own rules to generate rares-for example the 'Thaloren' set would include normal NPCs that use EQ and Stamina-based talents, and elite and rares that are based on Wilder classes, Archers and Fighters (Berserkers, etc). The boss of the level could either be randomly generated, or one of the already existing bosses, scaled to level (within preset level limits).
Re: Iron Prison game mode
necronomist... I'm going to have to disagree with you partially on this one. To me, the advantage of this mode would be that it would be a game mode that would finally bring back grinding (in a randomly generated way). Making it a "hit bosses at every x levels, and then a final boss once you hit level Y" just makes it a variant on the base game with randomly generated levels and no quests... or, perhaps more accurately, Infinite Dungeon with stores and themes. I get that grinding doesn't really belong in the base game (with two exceptions - one of which must be unlocked and is limited in use, and the other of which has the potential to be starkly lethal), and I've gotten to be okay with that, but it would be nice to have a mode that *does* embrace the grind again.
As a side thought, it might be interesting to do more with energy in this version of the game. Have each use of the recall stick cost energy, for example, and possibly have some ability to trigger a store restock and/or upgrade by spending energy - possibly even a quest or two that boils down to "give me a whole bunch of energy so that I can upgrade the town in this interesting and useful way". After all, you don't need it to generate farportals anymore.
As a side thought, it might be interesting to do more with energy in this version of the game. Have each use of the recall stick cost energy, for example, and possibly have some ability to trigger a store restock and/or upgrade by spending energy - possibly even a quest or two that boils down to "give me a whole bunch of energy so that I can upgrade the town in this interesting and useful way". After all, you don't need it to generate farportals anymore.
Re: Iron Prison game mode
I think that's a great idea, but it would take significantly more work to do, partly because not all types have a good selection of monsters. One way around that would be to apply templates (? whatever is done for gloomy/sickened creatures, and for the Dark Crypt) of one specific theme to some or all of the monsters.necronomist wrote:However, I think more important would be to have a large number of 'themed' components that can be combined to generate interesting and coherent 'dungeons'. So for example, you could have a 'Forest'-themed dungeon that could include NPCs drawn either from the 'Beast' set, the 'Thaloren' set, the 'Orc' set or the 'Shaloren' set. Each set would include a number of already existing monsters and NPCs and its own rules to generate rares-for example the 'Thaloren' set would include normal NPCs that use EQ and Stamina-based talents, and elite and rares that are based on Wilder classes, Archers and Fighters (Berserkers, etc). The boss of the level could either be randomly generated, or one of the already existing bosses, scaled to level (within preset level limits).
That's exactly what I was going for.Sirrocco wrote:To me, the advantage of this mode would be that it would be a game mode that would finally bring back grinding (in a randomly generated way).
I don't really see a need for having two separate currencies (gold and energy) in this type of game mode. It may make some decisions easier and encourage restocking more (as opposed to costing gold), but I don't know if adding that is worth balancing the two.necronomist wrote:As a side thought, it might be interesting to do more with energy in this version of the game.
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necronomist
- Wayist
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Re: Iron Prison game mode
Hmm...I'm not sure how 'grinding' or 'farming' would work in this context. In fact, I think one of the major strengths of the modern rogue-like gerne (and TOME in particular) is that the games do away with the need for farming either gold or equipment-some games do it with persistent levels and a food clock, TOME with just having a fixed number of 'dungeons', so that you are forced to progress in the game (farportals are an exception, balanced by the fact that they can be quite deadly). I feel that this is a fundamental design choice for the game and I fully support it; in fact, I was describing TOME 4 to my brother (hooked on Diablo 3) the other week as 'turn-based Diablo but designed on sound principles, such as no farming and limited lives'. That's because after a while, Diablo 3, a game designed around loot hunting and grinding, becomes the equivalent of a slot machine-the player engages in a repetitive activity that offers no or very little challenge, hoping that at some point a good item will drop.lukep wrote:That's exactly what I was going for.Sirrocco wrote:To me, the advantage of this mode would be that it would be a game mode that would finally bring back grinding (in a randomly generated way).
Now, I know that I sound overly critical and that there are a lot of people that would enjoy this type of gameplay-if thsi wasn't the case, Diablo 3 wouldn't have sold a gazillion of copies. So, the question is can TOME 4 support this type of gameplay? Does it have a sufficiently large and deep item pool ? And what sort of gameplay would this create? A character would presumably grind to lvl 50, then grind until he gets 'optimal' gear and once this is achieved then what? A heroic dive into the depths to see how long he lasts? Would people find this gametype appealing? (genuine question-I honestly have no clue)
On the other hand, a gametype with fixed goal (eg kill the endboss) utilising finite resources (represented by 'dungeons' you can clear) is in keeping much more with the spirit of the original game. What it adds is random progression-you don't kill Bill every game, your first encounter with the undead is not in the Kor-Pul ruins, etc. In exchange, the player will miss the finely crafted story of the main gamemode and all the great lore for the game. In addition, there are so many interesting additions one can make to this concept, based on creature sets; they could later be expanded into factions and the player can choose to ally himself with one or more; the factions could offer unique benefits (eg a new skill or a new locked tree) and new mission types (eg escort missions or defend the base missions, timed missions, etc). I do however realise that the introduction of sets can be quite an undertaking in itself, so I won't rumble on unless there is interest.
Re: Iron Prison game mode
See, necronomist, that's the point. First, TOME started out as a grind-style game. Then, the grinding was surgically removed piece by piece until there was basically none left. It can totally support unlimited grinding, and, indeed, many of us enjoyed it that way. If you want to play TOME as a non-grinding game, you can play the standard game. You can play the infinite dungeon. You can play the arena if you want. Now, we have a proposal that was basically put together as an interesting way to run a grind-based game of TOME... and your response is "that's cool, but you really need to take the grinding out of it."
Note here that "grind-based gameplay" is not "grind forever and never stop gameplay". I don't think that anyone's suggesting that we drop the level cap, or add higher tiers of gear or anything. The point is just to make monsters no longer a limited resource... because some of us prefer having things like monsters not be limited resources. Sure, there should be a final boss or other end-of-game somewhere, and when you're good and ready, you should be able to go trigger it, but that's nothing like the same as saying "you only have 100 levels to play through. Make them count."
On other subtopics, proposed possible endstate: after you do the thing to the guy, you escape the Prison (possibly bringing the town with you)... into the standard game of TOME.
Note here that "grind-based gameplay" is not "grind forever and never stop gameplay". I don't think that anyone's suggesting that we drop the level cap, or add higher tiers of gear or anything. The point is just to make monsters no longer a limited resource... because some of us prefer having things like monsters not be limited resources. Sure, there should be a final boss or other end-of-game somewhere, and when you're good and ready, you should be able to go trigger it, but that's nothing like the same as saying "you only have 100 levels to play through. Make them count."
On other subtopics, proposed possible endstate: after you do the thing to the guy, you escape the Prison (possibly bringing the town with you)... into the standard game of TOME.