I didn't have much time to post yesterday, still on vacation for another couple of days. But I wanted to touch on a couple of things.
Shattering Impacts only real problem is that it lives in a lack luster tree.
Temporal Clone I'm willing to look at improving and maybe even letting it work on bosses for half duration. That said there's some technical limitations to consider with cloning bosses, namely we have to make sure we remove certain effects from them (forced drops, things triggered when they die, things triggered when added to a level, etc. etc.). It's not an impossible effect to work with but it is one of those things that if special conditions get missed (or added later without the talents being accounted for) can be game breakingly buggy. *but see below on Timeline Threading in general*
Glyph of Explosion can be triggered multiple times. The knockback glyph and it are meant to work in synergy.
Circles could stand to be buffed I agree. Just upping the damage numbers on all of these talents would work well in my opinion, they scale really well otherwise and I think the secondary effects work as a divisor off the base damage. If I'm wrong (I don't have the SVN in front of me) then the secondary effects could be improved as well. Evasion instead of defense would probably be better on circle of shadows. As to Positive Energy on Circle of Blazing Light, it lets you ignore the spells that frankly will deal less damage in the middle of a heated fight (sorry Sun tree but you kinda suck as a whole when you discount energy gain). I playtested that tree pretty extensively when I wrote it and granted it's been several betas but a halfling anorithil with 4/5 in the whole tree walked through Dreadfell so easily I got bored with it and shelved the character after killing the master. But the game has changed a lot sense then and it is an unlocked tree and the talents are fairly expensive to cast. With the spellpower reduction across the board (tiering) I imagine those numbers suffered quite a bit.
I'm not entirely sold on the Russian Roulette approach to See the Threads either. Right now I'm leaning towards splicing Time Line Threading into the Chronomancy tree (probably Precognition, Gather the Threads, Spin Fate, and See the Threads) and giving a hefty bonus to Spin as well as base defensive values (all saves and defense) while See the Threads is going. The main issue with that is that I'll need to get motivated and write a replacement unlockable tree (I have something in mind that would do fun stuff with projectiles called Void, probably darkness/temporal split on damage which would give Chronomancers another damage source too). The tree idea would delve into areas of the engine I'm really unfamiliar with and would push the envelop as far as what we can do with projectiles (like I want the player to cast a slow moving projectile and be able to burst it into a star pattern or cause it to implode, etc. etc.). So it's kinda a big project in my mind and it's not something I can really borrow from someone else to accomplish (hence the hesitation to get started on it). Not trying to hijack the thread (no pun intended) but suffice it to say I haven't forgotten about See the Threads and I have some things in mind on how to improve it in the near future.
Poor skills list/ideas for them! (Warning, big topic.)
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Re: Poor skills list/ideas for them! (Warning, big topic.)
re: rapid shot, it deals about 50% more damage per game turn at high levels than either using Aim, or not using either (source). I can't imagine that it is actually underpowered, just that it is seen that way because Aim scales better at low levels.
Re: Poor skills list/ideas for them! (Warning, big topic.)
That Aim/Rapid Shot comparison seems to assume a standard 150% Critical Hit Modifier and guaranteed hits. (And 0 Armor, but that's not entirely unusual of an assumption, and is stated rather clearly in the topic.)
This is, of course, the situation that will favor Rapid Shot, which is massively less accurate and kills your critical hit rate. Dak'thun's Gauntlets having a +50% critical hit modifier alone will knock that into the 220 range(for the elemental arrows. For the non-elemental baseline comparison, it very nearly catches up to Rapid Shot, same with the Bow Mastery comparison), if I read that right. Maybe 10%-30% less damage, depending on your arrows, which means that any miss rate at all on Rapid Shot will render it less damaging *and* vastly more ammo comsumptive. That's just one(admittedly high impact) equip; I've seen 250%~ critical hit modifiers.
The punchline is, that we're having this conversation at all means it probably shouldn't be on the list. This was supposed to be clear losers, and instead it's clearly vastly situational/preference oriented, with both being good at different things. While I would always take Aim still, for the reasons I stated, if I was to only take one, I'm pretty impressed by the raw damage comparison anyways-I thought that would be notably closer.
I'm reasonably convinced by this discussion that the issue is more psychological. While it might be worth trying to find a way to make the skill more appealing mentally(Not that I can figure out what...). Maybe with the less class points required by the class in general, due to the recently lowered Bow/Sling Mastery points in trunk, this will see more love. People probably ought to just level both. It's certainly what I'll do, now, when I get serious about doing an Archer run.
As to Glyph of Explosion...well, triggering it four times in a row does 300 damage, which is, if I'm not mistaken, not notably much more damage than just casting one of the Anorithil's better damage spells would have done instantly, and requires both elaborate setup and the closed in areas where an Anorithil excels anyways. There's just so little payoff/point. You can, of course, rack up...call it twice that many hits, with proper Repulsion abuse, but the issue is, if you can, you have so much control over the situation that you could hammer out thousands of damage on the enemy before the Repulsion Glyph wore off. Conceivably it can be abused for out of line of sight damage, but by its nature, the enemy still has to be moving in your direction for it to work at all, so the enemies can't be that far out of line of sight, generally.
I admit, though, since the hits of the small damage rack up, I was overestimating the initial boost required. It doesn't need *that* much damage to look reasonably good, and mostly needs it at L1(where the damage from four hits generally is comparable to hitting someone with, oh, Sunburst.).
The Void/Threading retool seems pretty interesting as an idea. PMs are extremely linear on elements(Not bad, their elemental setup is workable as long as you invest in Gravity, but it's very simple.), and some unusual damage skills that tend to add a secondary element would be welcome. And (sort of) combining See The Threads and Moment of Prescience, which it sounds like more or less what you're suggesting, does seem like a pretty solid way to buff both.
This is, of course, the situation that will favor Rapid Shot, which is massively less accurate and kills your critical hit rate. Dak'thun's Gauntlets having a +50% critical hit modifier alone will knock that into the 220 range(for the elemental arrows. For the non-elemental baseline comparison, it very nearly catches up to Rapid Shot, same with the Bow Mastery comparison), if I read that right. Maybe 10%-30% less damage, depending on your arrows, which means that any miss rate at all on Rapid Shot will render it less damaging *and* vastly more ammo comsumptive. That's just one(admittedly high impact) equip; I've seen 250%~ critical hit modifiers.
The punchline is, that we're having this conversation at all means it probably shouldn't be on the list. This was supposed to be clear losers, and instead it's clearly vastly situational/preference oriented, with both being good at different things. While I would always take Aim still, for the reasons I stated, if I was to only take one, I'm pretty impressed by the raw damage comparison anyways-I thought that would be notably closer.
I'm reasonably convinced by this discussion that the issue is more psychological. While it might be worth trying to find a way to make the skill more appealing mentally(Not that I can figure out what...). Maybe with the less class points required by the class in general, due to the recently lowered Bow/Sling Mastery points in trunk, this will see more love. People probably ought to just level both. It's certainly what I'll do, now, when I get serious about doing an Archer run.
As to Glyph of Explosion...well, triggering it four times in a row does 300 damage, which is, if I'm not mistaken, not notably much more damage than just casting one of the Anorithil's better damage spells would have done instantly, and requires both elaborate setup and the closed in areas where an Anorithil excels anyways. There's just so little payoff/point. You can, of course, rack up...call it twice that many hits, with proper Repulsion abuse, but the issue is, if you can, you have so much control over the situation that you could hammer out thousands of damage on the enemy before the Repulsion Glyph wore off. Conceivably it can be abused for out of line of sight damage, but by its nature, the enemy still has to be moving in your direction for it to work at all, so the enemies can't be that far out of line of sight, generally.
I admit, though, since the hits of the small damage rack up, I was overestimating the initial boost required. It doesn't need *that* much damage to look reasonably good, and mostly needs it at L1(where the damage from four hits generally is comparable to hitting someone with, oh, Sunburst.).
The Void/Threading retool seems pretty interesting as an idea. PMs are extremely linear on elements(Not bad, their elemental setup is workable as long as you invest in Gravity, but it's very simple.), and some unusual damage skills that tend to add a secondary element would be welcome. And (sort of) combining See The Threads and Moment of Prescience, which it sounds like more or less what you're suggesting, does seem like a pretty solid way to buff both.
Re: Poor skills list/ideas for them! (Warning, big topic.)
Ammo management is a big nuisance for archers, and this alone makes rapid shot a poor choice. In general the class seems to have been made both less interesting and weaker than the caster classes which it is most comparable to. The class has short range compared to spells, few choices for talents, and an extremely annoying ammunition management system (as opposed to things like manasurge runes that refill mana instantly). The ammo management system is on top of the already substantial restrictions imposed by stamina. Archers also have fewer tools than caster for inflicting status and fewer recovery tools. Steady shot is the one bright spot.
I think that the restrictions on the archer class need to be substantively reworked, as the current build is much weaker than prior ones, and has a lot of busywork ingredients. Adding in default ammo, increasing range so that archers don't need to rush casters, and adding in another specialty tree would be helpful.
Re rapid shot: if you assume that you always hit and never run out of ammo you'll always gain from shooting faster. Rapid shot makes it harder to hit and you run out of arrows quickly if you use it. These are relevant, and explain why archers don't seem to choose it much. If you need a character that never misses with infinite ammo to use something, then I'd contend that it isn't properly balanced.
I think that the restrictions on the archer class need to be substantively reworked, as the current build is much weaker than prior ones, and has a lot of busywork ingredients. Adding in default ammo, increasing range so that archers don't need to rush casters, and adding in another specialty tree would be helpful.
Re rapid shot: if you assume that you always hit and never run out of ammo you'll always gain from shooting faster. Rapid shot makes it harder to hit and you run out of arrows quickly if you use it. These are relevant, and explain why archers don't seem to choose it much. If you need a character that never misses with infinite ammo to use something, then I'd contend that it isn't properly balanced.
Re: Poor skills list/ideas for them! (Warning, big topic.)
Ammo management:
As a Temporal Warden that got 3.5 attacks per turn via speed bonuses, the ammo restriction really wasn't that bad for me. Archers get far fewer attacks per turn, even with Rapid Fire, so I imagine they would be even more ammo efficient. It certainly is somewhat troublesome in the beginning when you only have your 12-arrow quiver that reloads once per turn, but early game vastly favors ranged characters anyway and by the lategame you'll be reloading 8 arrows per turn with a 30-arrow quiver, with several backup quivers to switch to if you ever happen to run out of ammo and get too lazy to reload.
Comparisons with casters:
Casters have much less health. Lategame bows go up to 11 range, outranging all single target spells. Manasurge runes use up a valuable inscription slot. Archer stamina management is simple and hardly prohibitive. Archers can get a pin, blind, slow, and stun all in one tree, which is more than enough tools for inflicting status. Most classes lack recovery tools, archers are hardly alone in this.
Archer difficulty:
If you think archers need to be stronger, you should check out this character report. Since then, archers have only gotten better.
As a Temporal Warden that got 3.5 attacks per turn via speed bonuses, the ammo restriction really wasn't that bad for me. Archers get far fewer attacks per turn, even with Rapid Fire, so I imagine they would be even more ammo efficient. It certainly is somewhat troublesome in the beginning when you only have your 12-arrow quiver that reloads once per turn, but early game vastly favors ranged characters anyway and by the lategame you'll be reloading 8 arrows per turn with a 30-arrow quiver, with several backup quivers to switch to if you ever happen to run out of ammo and get too lazy to reload.
Comparisons with casters:
Casters have much less health. Lategame bows go up to 11 range, outranging all single target spells. Manasurge runes use up a valuable inscription slot. Archer stamina management is simple and hardly prohibitive. Archers can get a pin, blind, slow, and stun all in one tree, which is more than enough tools for inflicting status. Most classes lack recovery tools, archers are hardly alone in this.
Archer difficulty:
If you think archers need to be stronger, you should check out this character report. Since then, archers have only gotten better.
Re: Poor skills list/ideas for them! (Warning, big topic.)
Archers are surely not relatively weak enough to worry about, unless I'm missing something, yeah.
Relatively few classes are, right now, honestly. I think that I'd be most worried about Arcane Blade at this point, honestly.
That reminds me, I did actually have an idea specifically for AB, but it wasn't in the skills that I got wrapped up in, so I forgot to mention it. ABs as they stand do suffer from some rather simple issues, and one of them is that they simply don't have a lot of Stamina-side options. If they had starting, unlocked Battle Tactics at 1.3, it would not only be very characteristic, but also not specifically focused on any specific weapon, and would give them a couple of very nice Stamina oriented skills(Greater Weapon Focus and Bleeding Edge).
I think the other two things I thought of that time were to make Conveyance start out unlocked, and to give them the Earth tree locked-this would leave them with the same amount of unlocked/locked trees, give them some of the mobility benefit of a mage from the start, and would give them a very nice set of area control skills that fits AB more than Archmage, with the same amount of locked trees still(Which would make Cornac ABs a still nice option, mostly. I like how Cornac stands out for AB.). I don't think the class needs a heavy overhaul to become a decently strong contender, just a few more options to balance things out.
Relatively few classes are, right now, honestly. I think that I'd be most worried about Arcane Blade at this point, honestly.
That reminds me, I did actually have an idea specifically for AB, but it wasn't in the skills that I got wrapped up in, so I forgot to mention it. ABs as they stand do suffer from some rather simple issues, and one of them is that they simply don't have a lot of Stamina-side options. If they had starting, unlocked Battle Tactics at 1.3, it would not only be very characteristic, but also not specifically focused on any specific weapon, and would give them a couple of very nice Stamina oriented skills(Greater Weapon Focus and Bleeding Edge).
I think the other two things I thought of that time were to make Conveyance start out unlocked, and to give them the Earth tree locked-this would leave them with the same amount of unlocked/locked trees, give them some of the mobility benefit of a mage from the start, and would give them a very nice set of area control skills that fits AB more than Archmage, with the same amount of locked trees still(Which would make Cornac ABs a still nice option, mostly. I like how Cornac stands out for AB.). I don't think the class needs a heavy overhaul to become a decently strong contender, just a few more options to balance things out.
Re: Poor skills list/ideas for them! (Warning, big topic.)
Alright, I love discussing game/design theory stuff, but there's a lot to go over in this thread as it's essentially a mega issues thread with lots of smart people all with valid ideas.
So, I'm going to weigh in on only the things I feel particularly comfortable with.
Techniques: Field Control and Cunning: Survival
Personally I recommend moving Track from field control, and moving it over to Cunning:Survival. To make room for Track in Cunning:Survival merge heightened senses and piercing sight.
Why? In roguelikes character strength is ultimately determined by offense, defense, escape and or avoidance, in that order for any given enemy. Escape and or avoidance are determined by utility powers and lend tremendous tactical value to any given character- whilst absolutely ability in either one creates trivial and almost overpowered characters, giving incomplete non-ultimate ability in either case lends a lot of depth- to be able to see what's coming before it's came gives battlefield positioning and control. To be able to divide and conquer the enemies, or to reposition yourself to that corridor to fight one at a time.
Meanwhile we've got a number of classes who flat out have no access to utility detection, minus say a lucky escort. Cunning: survival should be a tempting thought for all classes involved, and evasion is imho quite tempting for everyone- it's just at the end of a long tree that can have at least two of it's talents in tree itemized away. I think this move would cause it to go from "generics more valuable elsewhere" to "tempting..."
Advanced Necrotic Minions
Sacrifice: (bone shield skill for necros) here's what I'd do. Treat it like conduit, let necromancers be able to hold their bone shield open until it's needed, with a low-moderate sustain cost. Just don't let it start cooling off from a hefty cooldown period until it's been fully used up.
Circles and Glyphs
I see a possibility here of allowing another type of build to surface for Anorithil: Instead of laser cleric hymn of moonlight crit chance anorithil going pew pew (which I do love), try a darkest light invisible battlefield manipulating anorithil, abusing multi jumpgates, circles, and glyphs. At their current position, cat point cost, and level requirement, it's not particularly feasible, but I think alternative builds/playstyles within a class should be encouraged. I suspect one anorithil as vs another presently plays very very similar.
So, I'm going to weigh in on only the things I feel particularly comfortable with.
Techniques: Field Control and Cunning: Survival
Personally I recommend moving Track from field control, and moving it over to Cunning:Survival. To make room for Track in Cunning:Survival merge heightened senses and piercing sight.
Why? In roguelikes character strength is ultimately determined by offense, defense, escape and or avoidance, in that order for any given enemy. Escape and or avoidance are determined by utility powers and lend tremendous tactical value to any given character- whilst absolutely ability in either one creates trivial and almost overpowered characters, giving incomplete non-ultimate ability in either case lends a lot of depth- to be able to see what's coming before it's came gives battlefield positioning and control. To be able to divide and conquer the enemies, or to reposition yourself to that corridor to fight one at a time.
Meanwhile we've got a number of classes who flat out have no access to utility detection, minus say a lucky escort. Cunning: survival should be a tempting thought for all classes involved, and evasion is imho quite tempting for everyone- it's just at the end of a long tree that can have at least two of it's talents in tree itemized away. I think this move would cause it to go from "generics more valuable elsewhere" to "tempting..."
Advanced Necrotic Minions
Sacrifice: (bone shield skill for necros) here's what I'd do. Treat it like conduit, let necromancers be able to hold their bone shield open until it's needed, with a low-moderate sustain cost. Just don't let it start cooling off from a hefty cooldown period until it's been fully used up.
Circles and Glyphs
I see a possibility here of allowing another type of build to surface for Anorithil: Instead of laser cleric hymn of moonlight crit chance anorithil going pew pew (which I do love), try a darkest light invisible battlefield manipulating anorithil, abusing multi jumpgates, circles, and glyphs. At their current position, cat point cost, and level requirement, it's not particularly feasible, but I think alternative builds/playstyles within a class should be encouraged. I suspect one anorithil as vs another presently plays very very similar.
Re: Poor skills list/ideas for them! (Warning, big topic.)
Track gloves, Arcane Eye hats, wands of detect creature.omni wrote:Meanwhile we've got a number of classes who flat out have no access to utility detection, minus say a lucky escort.
Re: Poor skills list/ideas for them! (Warning, big topic.)
Sorry, I guess that did come off hyperbolic. You're right donkatsu, especially considering detection wands nowadays. Itemization can certainly solve the issue reliably eventually.
Still though, I'm betting not too many high levels are thrilled at the idea of filling in the detection issue via itemization. Too many artifacts and things demanding attention.
The idea is to address cunning:survival poor skills as a whole by making the tree itself more attractive- combining two skills into one, adding in track, and I bet there'd be more people grabbing the skills as a whole. It's my theory people aren't taking evasion because they don't want it- just that three other skills of very marginal value lie inbetween. Up the value of the other things, and they will come.
Still though, I'm betting not too many high levels are thrilled at the idea of filling in the detection issue via itemization. Too many artifacts and things demanding attention.
The idea is to address cunning:survival poor skills as a whole by making the tree itself more attractive- combining two skills into one, adding in track, and I bet there'd be more people grabbing the skills as a whole. It's my theory people aren't taking evasion because they don't want it- just that three other skills of very marginal value lie inbetween. Up the value of the other things, and they will come.
Re: Poor skills list/ideas for them! (Warning, big topic.)
I think one of the issues with the necromancer bone shield is that bone shields in general kinda suck. I'm not a fan of the corrupter sustain either.
Buffing bone shields so each charge was 100% Evasion would make them much better (yes it would make them useless against spells but it would make them very effective against melee and archers). As it is currently all bone shields are extremely situational due to the large number of elemental weapon effects, melee projections, dots, and AoE field effects in the game.
Another thought would be to give them a scaling damage threshold and allow them to block all damage under that threshold and a single hit over it at the cost of a charge. In other words they'd work kinda like armor but the armor itself would have charges that could be eaten up by a single large hit. Though that might be way to good at stopping dot damage (especially the sustained version).
Buffing bone shields so each charge was 100% Evasion would make them much better (yes it would make them useless against spells but it would make them very effective against melee and archers). As it is currently all bone shields are extremely situational due to the large number of elemental weapon effects, melee projections, dots, and AoE field effects in the game.
Another thought would be to give them a scaling damage threshold and allow them to block all damage under that threshold and a single hit over it at the cost of a charge. In other words they'd work kinda like armor but the armor itself would have charges that could be eaten up by a single large hit. Though that might be way to good at stopping dot damage (especially the sustained version).
Re: Poor skills list/ideas for them! (Warning, big topic.)
I like the scaling damage threshold idea much better than Evasion. There are already too many ways to circumvent weapon damage (armor, defense, Evasion, resistance, invisibility, stealth) compared to spell damage (just resistance). Even antimagic shield tends to affect weapon damage just as much, if not more than, spell damage because of damage type conversion and on-hit damage effects. And although there are other talents that are highly effective at stopping DoT (Vimsense + Leech, that one Paradox Mage sustain, Antimagic Shield), I don't think they've proven overly powerful so far. But perhaps a more unique mechanic would be a non-scaling damage threshold that doesn't block hits below the threshold.
Re: Poor skills list/ideas for them! (Warning, big topic.)
I'll chime in that I like the scaling barrier minimum as well.
However, it could just be that Bone Shields will only block hits over a certain amount, and let lesser damage through, if the scaling barrier is too strong. That's not really out of character, given the idea of the skill is barriers that actively block attacks.
But I don't think the scaling barrier is really a threat to balance(except in the sense that Bone Shield stops getting countered so easily by, say, Wretchlings.). Most actively good damage over time breaks, say, 20-40, by the time you can afford either Sacrifice or Bone Shield-it tends to mostly be nuisance value damage over time below that, not an actual danger-and I don't really see strong DoT (Like, say, Gravity Well or Flame) doing well against Bone Shields as being that bad of a downside. After all, physical fighters can multiple strike to break off more than one barrier, too.
I think the only damage over time that really falls into that 20-40 range, that I find dangerous, is the exceptionally long Ghoul diseases, and...well, they're dangerous to everyone else, so it failing against them seems fine. And they're niche, so it walling them seems fine too. So I wouldn't worry about it much.
However, it could just be that Bone Shields will only block hits over a certain amount, and let lesser damage through, if the scaling barrier is too strong. That's not really out of character, given the idea of the skill is barriers that actively block attacks.
But I don't think the scaling barrier is really a threat to balance(except in the sense that Bone Shield stops getting countered so easily by, say, Wretchlings.). Most actively good damage over time breaks, say, 20-40, by the time you can afford either Sacrifice or Bone Shield-it tends to mostly be nuisance value damage over time below that, not an actual danger-and I don't really see strong DoT (Like, say, Gravity Well or Flame) doing well against Bone Shields as being that bad of a downside. After all, physical fighters can multiple strike to break off more than one barrier, too.
I think the only damage over time that really falls into that 20-40 range, that I find dangerous, is the exceptionally long Ghoul diseases, and...well, they're dangerous to everyone else, so it failing against them seems fine. And they're niche, so it walling them seems fine too. So I wouldn't worry about it much.
Re: Poor skills list/ideas for them! (Warning, big topic.)
Mindlash is OP as hell and i don't see a reason to buff psi-archery to same levels. That being said it has some cost issues and first 2 skills are pretty much worthless. Especially the first one, if you invest in this tree you need accuracy anyway, and single shot isn't going to help you much. And your cirt rate is good enough anyway.
Evasion is pretty great. Its underusedness is probably because it is late bloomer.
Evasion is pretty great. Its underusedness is probably because it is late bloomer.
Re: Poor skills list/ideas for them! (Warning, big topic.)
Another way to boost Bone Shield - allow it to absorb all damage for a full turn. It would be a very powerful effect, in some circumstances, but regular shielding effects typically survive more than a turn anyway. Effects like the Weirdling Beast's Bone Shield would need to be toned down, but I think it would be pretty easy to balance (3 bone shields == 3 turns of immunity).
Sorry about all the parentheses (sometimes I like to clarify things).
Re: Poor skills list/ideas for them! (Warning, big topic.)
Before you start turning bone shields into turns of immunity (and not just "I have three bone shields, I get not not worry for the next three turns" but "I have three bone shields, my enemy must attack me on three distinct turns before he can think of harming me") I'd ask that you consider the orcish corrupter in the antimagic quest, who throws up bone shields with far less effort than the necromancer.