It's not even that hard to get a minimal amount of Spellpower(20 or so) practically. The Eldritch Pearl alone nearly fulfills that, IIRC.
Still, I wouldn't really run Celestial/Light on people that aren't building Magic. Too much of a hit in other areas, or too ineffective of barriers/healing, one(though Providence is never bad, it's also one of the reward options.). For Cursed, I'd much rather get something like Elemental Harmony going instead.
Cursed/Redemption (Looking for Benli)
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Re: Cursed/Redemption (Looking for Benli)
I agree 
But we're all beside the point I think.
Hmmph. We've got to make sure this tree has appeal to doomed and cursed...
Which means proposed scream and fervor aren't so hot. Salvation also looks like a lifeleech reproach, though more the old reproach at range 3.
But we're all beside the point I think.
Hmmph. We've got to make sure this tree has appeal to doomed and cursed...
Which means proposed scream and fervor aren't so hot. Salvation also looks like a lifeleech reproach, though more the old reproach at range 3.
Last edited by omni on Thu May 31, 2012 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Cursed/Redemption (Looking for Benli)
Yeah, going to echo what I said on IRC when this topic was first posted.omni wrote:I agree
But we're all beside the point I think.
Hmmph. We've got to make sure this tree has appeal to doomed and cursed...
Which means proposed scream and fervor aren't so hot. Salvation also looks like a lofeleech reproach, though more the old reproach at range 3.
I find the idea of a Redemption tree interesting but I don't find these talents all that well thought out. The initial ones where worse but I agree with what omni said, these are very biased towards Cursed and frankly I don't feel they fit the theme of the tree all that well (aside from Penance which is cool).
Re: Cursed/Redemption (Looking for Benli)
Okay - so, what do Cursed need and not get? What do Doomed need and not get?
Honestly, I wouldn't mind making this a bit doomed-biased. My understanding is that they're feeling a tch weak right now. Problem is, they're feeling a tch weak because they don't have enough punch, and this really ought to be a generic tree rather than a class tree (though it can afford to be based at least somewhat on mindpower).
*hrms*.
Well, one thing is that Doomed have problems with running out of Hate. Cursed do too, but not as badly. With the redemption theme, I'd almost suggest that the tree have various benefits that get better as your hate drops. So...
- Cleansing breath: 0 cost, 0 time sustain. consumes hate quickly, while granting a decent heal over time, but does not break at Hate 0. Heal over time gets stronger with increased mindpower and as your hate gets lower. If this is sustained, your hate *will* go to 0 and stay there by default.
- Inner Serenity: Passive. Boosts mindpower, with greater increases as your hate gets lower
- Remain at Peace: 0 cost, 0 time sustain. Requires that your Hate be 0. Similar to old-style Pity, but breaks if your hate rises above 0 or you attack anyone. Moderate cooldown.
- Take Your Brother's Burden: Active skill with moderate-to-longish cooldown. Requires that your Hate be 0. Target enemy becomes neutral for a few turns or until attacked, and you gain a block of Hate. Effectiveness based on Mindpower.
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Basically, these give you panic buttons for when things are going down the tubes. Cleansing breath lets you trade in combat power for healing, and enables the rest. Inner Serenity is generally helpful, particularly for Doomed, and more helpful the less Hate you have. Remain at Peace makes it easier to hide out or escape wen you're down to nothing (and have already turned on Cleansing Breath) but is a bit fragile (even ecountering an elite can break it) and has a cooldown to keep it from being too abusable. Take Your Brother's Burden gives you a flavorful way to get back into the fight after your'e done - both handing you a block of starter Hate and simplifying the fight for a few turns.
At the same time, while the tree if packed full of help for nto dying, it doesn't have a whole lot of stuff to make you more effective in combat. Using the tree effectively basically requires that you dump whatever hate you're carrying. I'd see it as interesting and potentially useful, but not by any means mandatory.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind making this a bit doomed-biased. My understanding is that they're feeling a tch weak right now. Problem is, they're feeling a tch weak because they don't have enough punch, and this really ought to be a generic tree rather than a class tree (though it can afford to be based at least somewhat on mindpower).
*hrms*.
Well, one thing is that Doomed have problems with running out of Hate. Cursed do too, but not as badly. With the redemption theme, I'd almost suggest that the tree have various benefits that get better as your hate drops. So...
- Cleansing breath: 0 cost, 0 time sustain. consumes hate quickly, while granting a decent heal over time, but does not break at Hate 0. Heal over time gets stronger with increased mindpower and as your hate gets lower. If this is sustained, your hate *will* go to 0 and stay there by default.
- Inner Serenity: Passive. Boosts mindpower, with greater increases as your hate gets lower
- Remain at Peace: 0 cost, 0 time sustain. Requires that your Hate be 0. Similar to old-style Pity, but breaks if your hate rises above 0 or you attack anyone. Moderate cooldown.
- Take Your Brother's Burden: Active skill with moderate-to-longish cooldown. Requires that your Hate be 0. Target enemy becomes neutral for a few turns or until attacked, and you gain a block of Hate. Effectiveness based on Mindpower.
-----------------------
Basically, these give you panic buttons for when things are going down the tubes. Cleansing breath lets you trade in combat power for healing, and enables the rest. Inner Serenity is generally helpful, particularly for Doomed, and more helpful the less Hate you have. Remain at Peace makes it easier to hide out or escape wen you're down to nothing (and have already turned on Cleansing Breath) but is a bit fragile (even ecountering an elite can break it) and has a cooldown to keep it from being too abusable. Take Your Brother's Burden gives you a flavorful way to get back into the fight after your'e done - both handing you a block of starter Hate and simplifying the fight for a few turns.
At the same time, while the tree if packed full of help for nto dying, it doesn't have a whole lot of stuff to make you more effective in combat. Using the tree effectively basically requires that you dump whatever hate you're carrying. I'd see it as interesting and potentially useful, but not by any means mandatory.
Re: Cursed/Redemption (Looking for Benli)
...
I like it. It's useful for Doomed and Cursed, and in particuarly (depending on power level) the Remain at Peace gives you a potential option for skip this elite, lets power up my hate vs these lovely worms over here....
I like it. It's useful for Doomed and Cursed, and in particuarly (depending on power level) the Remain at Peace gives you a potential option for skip this elite, lets power up my hate vs these lovely worms over here....
Re: Cursed/Redemption (Looking for Benli)
i agree with Sirrocco this would create a fantastic dynamic where you are often torn between offence and defence.
Re: Cursed/Redemption (Looking for Benli)
That's...actually pretty workable, yes. The first skill is what I used to think Deflection was, before realizing how slowly it refilled-a decent constant mitigation of damage at the cost of Hate. The third skill is good as an escape, and the fourth is one of the few ways to actually get Hate back at low Hate as a Cursed.
The second skill could probably use more of a rounding effect to be less Doomed oriented and more overall, though. That's easy, though, just make it raise Defense too. (Or Saves...but Defense is more interesting, as it both encourages odd Doomed builds and strengthens Cursed overall.)
The second skill could probably use more of a rounding effect to be less Doomed oriented and more overall, though. That's easy, though, just make it raise Defense too. (Or Saves...but Defense is more interesting, as it both encourages odd Doomed builds and strengthens Cursed overall.)
Re: Cursed/Redemption (Looking for Benli)
Eh? Cursed who go Gloom-heavy actually get a fair bit out of their mindpower (and these days it's all on defense). They might not care enough to max it, but it's not like the qual point would be wasted. It also boosts the heal on Cleansing Breath.
Mind, I'm not really bothered by the idea of having it boost something else as well - but if we're going to do that, as long as we're on the theme of "Overcoming your curse by being at peace", why not have the secondary boost be heal mod instead? That lets us dial back the heal from Cleansing Breath a bit, since it won't have to work quite as hard to punch through the -50% from being afflicted, and that, in turn, should make the odd niche no-Hate superhealer builds somewhat less potentially abusable.
Although, having written that, I suddenly find the idea of someone playing a low-to-no-hate Cursed using this tree kind of appealing. He'd have gloom (with cranked mindpower), he'd have stalk, he'd have whichever weapon form he decided to go with, and he'd have the standard weapon-boosting generics. He'd be a bit short on active powers, but I could see someone making it a workable strategy, which would be really *very* in theme with the tree. It's just that the line between "achievable, and potentially awesome" and "terribly, terribly broken" can be so *thin* sometimes.
Mind, I'm not really bothered by the idea of having it boost something else as well - but if we're going to do that, as long as we're on the theme of "Overcoming your curse by being at peace", why not have the secondary boost be heal mod instead? That lets us dial back the heal from Cleansing Breath a bit, since it won't have to work quite as hard to punch through the -50% from being afflicted, and that, in turn, should make the odd niche no-Hate superhealer builds somewhat less potentially abusable.
Although, having written that, I suddenly find the idea of someone playing a low-to-no-hate Cursed using this tree kind of appealing. He'd have gloom (with cranked mindpower), he'd have stalk, he'd have whichever weapon form he decided to go with, and he'd have the standard weapon-boosting generics. He'd be a bit short on active powers, but I could see someone making it a workable strategy, which would be really *very* in theme with the tree. It's just that the line between "achievable, and potentially awesome" and "terribly, terribly broken" can be so *thin* sometimes.