Epidemic in b39...too powerful?

[jenx]

If epidemic in b39 cannot be resisted, does that mean if NPCs cast it, one's character will then get the disease, even if disease immunity is 100% ???

Seems like a random boss with this talent could be very nasty indeed in that case. I'm not in favour of effects that bypass saving throws and/or immunities.

Code: Select all

newTalent{
 205         name = "Epidemic",
 206         type = {"corruption/plague", 4},
 207         require = corrs_req4,
 208         points = 5,
 209         vim = 20,
 210         cooldown = 13,
 211         range = 6,
 212         radius = 2,
 213         tactical = { ATTACK = {BLIGHT = 2} },
 214         requires_target = true,
 215         do_spread = function(self, t, carrier)
 216                 -- List all diseases
 217                 local diseases = {}
 218                 for eff_id, p in pairs(carrier.tmp) do
 219                         local e = carrier.tempeffect_def[eff_id]
 220                         if e.subtype.disease then
 221                                 diseases[#diseases+1] = {id=eff_id, params=p}
 222                         end
 223                 end
 224 
 225                 if #diseases == 0 then return end
 226                 self:project({type="ball", radius=self:getTalentRadius(t)}, carrier.x, carrier.y, function(px, py)
 227                         local target = game.level.map(px, py, engine.Map.ACTOR)
 228                         if not target or target == carrier or target == self then return end
 229 
 230                         local disease = rng.table(diseases)
 231                         local params = disease.params
 232                         params.src = self
 233                         if target:canBe("disease") then
 234                                 target:setEffect(disease.id, 6, {src=self, dam=disease.params.dam, str=disease.params.str, dex=disease.params.dex, con=disease.params.con, heal_factor=disease.params.heal_factor, burst=disease.params.burst, rot_timer=disease.params.rot_timer, apply_power=self:combatSpellpower()})
 235                         else
 236                                 game.logSeen(target, "%s resists the disease!", target.name:capitalize())
 237                         end
 238                         game.level.map:particleEmitter(px, py, 1, "slime")
 239                 end)
 240         end,
 241         action = function(self, t)
 242                 local tg = {type="bolt", range=self:getTalentRange(t)}
 243                 local x, y = self:getTarget(tg)
 244                 if not x or not y then return nil end
 245 
 246                 -- Try to rot !
 247                 self:project(tg, x, y, function(px, py)
 248                         local target = game.level.map(px, py, engine.Map.ACTOR)
 249                         if not target or (self:reactionToward(target) >= 0) then return end
 250                         target:setEffect(self.EFF_EPIDEMIC, 6, {src=self, dam=self:combatTalentSpellDamage(t, 15, 50), heal_factor=40 + self:getTalentLevel(t) * 4, resist=30 + self:getTalentLevel(t) * 6, apply_power=self:combatSpellpower()})
 251                         game.level.map:particleEmitter(px, py, 1, "slime")
 252                 end)
 253                 game:playSoundNear(self, "talents/slime")
 254 
 255                 return true
 256         end,
 257         info = function(self, t)
 258                 return ([[Infects the target with a very contagious disease doing %0.2f damage per turn for 6 turns.
 259                 If any blight damage from non-diseases hits the target, the epidemic may activate and spread a random disease to nearby targets within a radius 2 ball.
 260                 Creatures suffering from that disease will also suffer healing reduction (%d%%) and diseases immunity reduction (%d%%).
 261                 Epidemic is an extremely potent disease, as such it fully ignores the target's diseases immunity.
 262                 The damage will increase with your Magic stat, and the spread chance increases with the blight damage.]]):
 263                 format(damDesc(self, DamageType.BLIGHT, self:combatTalentSpellDamage(t, 15, 50)), 40 + self:getTalentLevel(t) * 4, 30 + self:getTalentLevel(t) * 6)
 264         end,
 265 }

[Keemossi]

I don't see anything wrong with that. I don't think anybody particularly bothers with disease resistance in any case, so ignoring disease resistance doesn't matter.

From player's (using the ability) point of view, this simply helps heavy disease builds against certain enemies. If Vimsense and other huge resistance lowering/ignoring effects are fine, I don't see why this wouldn't be.

Disease resistance being already marginal and being marginalized even more is a problem though.

[jenx]

Disease resistance is important to some builds

[phantomglider]

I think that Epidemic is okay for a few reasons.

First, diseases are not utterly debilitating like confuse or stun are. If one of those went through immunity, yeah, I'd call foul, but diseases are damage, and a minor debuff that at worst encumbers you, or maybe prevents you from swapping in some piece of equipment. Other abilities that cut through damage resistance exist. (Total Thuggery, Wildfire et al)

Second, if you do want disease resistance, you don't want it because of Epidemic. You want it because of those ghoul diseases that last for 50 turns and do 50 damage a turn, or maybe because of Worm Rot. You don't care about the disease spreading because you're probably alone, and if you can't handle 6 turns of a few dozen damage per turn your character has bigger problems than disease immunity, so the healing reduction is the most important part, and Epidemic is hardly the only effect that applies that.

Third, if Epidemic doesn't cut through disease immunity, the entirety of the Corruption/Plague tree is completely useless against some classes of enemies. Instant damage vs. DOT already gives a pretty strong reason to go for other damage sources, we don't need to make it worse by saying "oh and if you run into a Dreadmaster your entire investment in this tree is useless." It's a lot like the Wildfire-alikes in that regard.

[donkatsu]

In exactly what builds have disease resistance ever been important?

[edge2054]

It still gives a saving throw.

Frankly, I hate the immunity mechanic. I believe it makes sense as an intrinsic racial ability in a few player instances and in many monster instances but otherwise I think it's way to common on player gear and that a few status effects are way to punishing (which leads to the need for immunities). Epidemic is not one of those status effects.

So, in my opinion, arguing that Epidemic is to powerful because it ignores disease immunity is like arguing that Turn Back the Clock, all Hexes and Curses, and every other status effect without an attached immunity is over powered.

[jenx]

ok, you've all convinced me not to worry about this. I'M looking forward to corruptors in b39...