Spellsword (formerly Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class)
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Re: Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class
Are the trees that were moved to spells still strength-dependent for unlocking talents? I started a Shalore and was disappointed that my strength penalty was a serious hindrance in talent point investment.
I do really like the changes. The class feels very distinct now. One thing that bugged me was that I couldn't manually change stances. It felt weird that I couldn't start combat in a desired stance. Naturally, switching this way should take a turn.
I do really like the changes. The class feels very distinct now. One thing that bugged me was that I couldn't manually change stances. It felt weird that I couldn't start combat in a desired stance. Naturally, switching this way should take a turn.
Sorry about all the parentheses (sometimes I like to clarify things).
Re: Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class
Yes, stat requirements were swapped on the elemental trees to magic from strength. Only the Magical Combat Tree and Arcane-veteran trees require strength now.bricks wrote:Are the trees that were moved to spells still strength-dependent for unlocking talents? I started a Shalore and was disappointed that my strength penalty was a serious hindrance in talent point investment.
I do really like the changes. The class feels very distinct now. One thing that bugged me was that I couldn't manually change stances. It felt weird that I couldn't start combat in a desired stance. Naturally, switching this way should take a turn.
You can actually use the elemental strikes without a target. Just select an empty square next to you, and it will still fire, switching you to the desired stance, although at the cost of the stamina for the strike, as well as putting the strike on cooldown.
Re: Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class
Cool. I started to wonder if that was the case, good to know. I'd still be in favor of manual stance swapping, especially since it doesn't require any special knowledge.
Sorry about all the parentheses (sometimes I like to clarify things).
Re: Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class
I feel like the stats are way too thin if Magic is used as a primary stat in the latest version. It made sense to invest into Magic late when you had spare category points and could afford to pump Aegis or your primary magic attack tree. With only 3 stat points a level, it feels impossible to meet stat requirements to spend your class and generic points on level up and i find myself sacrificing constitution majorly, which means my character is much more susceptible to early game deaths than I would like. AB could either use a stat boosting ability or a primary focus of strength. Otherwise you end up with a class that basically requires you to start as a ghoul or skeleton.
Re: Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class
I posted a new version of the code which fixes a bug with Earthen Shield. Apparently damage that dropped it to 0 hit points wasn't dropping the shield itself, so it would stay up (although only with 0 hit points + its regen each turn until incoming damage dropped off). It now drops properly and goes on its long cooldown.
I'll point out that MAD (multiple attribute dependency) was a problem for the original Arcane Blade. As for a stat boosting power, the original Arcane Blade had inner power, but that wasn't available until level 12, and even at that level was only +1 or +2 to all. Even by 20 you were doing good if it provided +4 or +5 to all stats. That might let you shift 10 points out of the primary stats, and along with the +5 Con, net you 15 Con, or 60 hit points and some physical save. Even in the end game, it at most provided +11 to all, for a 44 hit point boost.
With the new Arcane blade you have access to Earthen Shield at level 8, and with the magic needed to open it, it will have over 100 hit points in its damage pool. That is the equivalent of more than 25 Con. As long as you have more than 100 hit points (because it only stops 50% of incoming damage), then it might as well be a 100 hit point increase at low levels (since enemies don't have dispels in that level range). At level 8, you could at most put 24 points into Con by ignoring all other stats, for only 96 hit points. It can be pre-cast and will stay up until damage drops it (well in the lastest version I just posted - previously it was bugged to stay up, providing more protection than intended). Are you having difficulty reaching level 8?
If you're comparing to the old Arcane Blade at very low leves, you're potentially missing Stunning Blow more than Con, as that provides a 70% damage debuff on enemies, which can effectively make your hit points feel 3 times as big. Use of Water Strike, preferably at least 2/5 for the 2 turn duration of freeze every 8 turns is a good replacement. Against Spellcasters, Air strike can serve a similar purpose.
Are you utilizing damage mitigation powers? Healing Water (or the still in Aegis Tree Heal) can heal over 100 hit points even with just 1 talent point. 5/5 Phase door and 1/5 Teleport from Conveyance can do wonders for survivability. I generally tackle bill around level 8 or 9 by targeted phase dooring back and forth down the long corridors on his level for example. Coupled with Water strike, you can sometimes defeat him without taking a single hit from him. You could alternatively open up some of the spell trees. Water provides Freeze, a strong defensive talent, coupled with some ranged AoEs. Fire has Flameshock, plus a highly effective ranged attack. At level 12, Earth has Stone wall, which can buy you recovery time.
As counter examples, I have run a Cornac character up to level 20 and defeated Urkis 3 times this weekend on rogue-like difficulty. I pumped Strength and Magic into the mid-30's to low 40's, and started increasing dex to the low 20's. I ignored Con each time. Traditionally I've ignored Con on my old Arcane Blades as well until late game, and never really had a problem. I've run Skeletons, Highers, and Cornacs through Prox and Kor'pul, getting to level 9 with each.
Are you having trouble with a different starting areas? What races have you tried?
With a bit more information, I can take a look and see if I agree with the assessment that there's a survivability problem at certain points and levels, and potentially make adjustments. Also, thanks for the feedback.
Whats the precise level range that is giving you difficulty? What level have you been able to achieve, and at what permadeath difficulty?belmarduk wrote:I feel like the stats are way too thin if Magic is used as a primary stat in the latest version. It made sense to invest into Magic late when you had spare category points and could afford to pump Aegis or your primary magic attack tree. With only 3 stat points a level, it feels impossible to meet stat requirements to spend your class and generic points on level up and i find myself sacrificing constitution majorly, which means my character is much more susceptible to early game deaths than I would like. AB could either use a stat boosting ability or a primary focus of strength. Otherwise you end up with a class that basically requires you to start as a ghoul or skeleton.
I'll point out that MAD (multiple attribute dependency) was a problem for the original Arcane Blade. As for a stat boosting power, the original Arcane Blade had inner power, but that wasn't available until level 12, and even at that level was only +1 or +2 to all. Even by 20 you were doing good if it provided +4 or +5 to all stats. That might let you shift 10 points out of the primary stats, and along with the +5 Con, net you 15 Con, or 60 hit points and some physical save. Even in the end game, it at most provided +11 to all, for a 44 hit point boost.
With the new Arcane blade you have access to Earthen Shield at level 8, and with the magic needed to open it, it will have over 100 hit points in its damage pool. That is the equivalent of more than 25 Con. As long as you have more than 100 hit points (because it only stops 50% of incoming damage), then it might as well be a 100 hit point increase at low levels (since enemies don't have dispels in that level range). At level 8, you could at most put 24 points into Con by ignoring all other stats, for only 96 hit points. It can be pre-cast and will stay up until damage drops it (well in the lastest version I just posted - previously it was bugged to stay up, providing more protection than intended). Are you having difficulty reaching level 8?
If you're comparing to the old Arcane Blade at very low leves, you're potentially missing Stunning Blow more than Con, as that provides a 70% damage debuff on enemies, which can effectively make your hit points feel 3 times as big. Use of Water Strike, preferably at least 2/5 for the 2 turn duration of freeze every 8 turns is a good replacement. Against Spellcasters, Air strike can serve a similar purpose.
Are you utilizing damage mitigation powers? Healing Water (or the still in Aegis Tree Heal) can heal over 100 hit points even with just 1 talent point. 5/5 Phase door and 1/5 Teleport from Conveyance can do wonders for survivability. I generally tackle bill around level 8 or 9 by targeted phase dooring back and forth down the long corridors on his level for example. Coupled with Water strike, you can sometimes defeat him without taking a single hit from him. You could alternatively open up some of the spell trees. Water provides Freeze, a strong defensive talent, coupled with some ranged AoEs. Fire has Flameshock, plus a highly effective ranged attack. At level 12, Earth has Stone wall, which can buy you recovery time.
As counter examples, I have run a Cornac character up to level 20 and defeated Urkis 3 times this weekend on rogue-like difficulty. I pumped Strength and Magic into the mid-30's to low 40's, and started increasing dex to the low 20's. I ignored Con each time. Traditionally I've ignored Con on my old Arcane Blades as well until late game, and never really had a problem. I've run Skeletons, Highers, and Cornacs through Prox and Kor'pul, getting to level 9 with each.
Are you having trouble with a different starting areas? What races have you tried?
With a bit more information, I can take a look and see if I agree with the assessment that there's a survivability problem at certain points and levels, and potentially make adjustments. Also, thanks for the feedback.
Re: Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class
Been playing this rework (v12) of the class out for a while and hugely enjoying it- way more than the default. I've been playing as a Higher and completely ignoring the Stone tree, focusing on Air and Fire with an occasional freeze and heal from Water.
Some parts of this I absolutely love. Air Stance when theres a horde nearby that keeps killing swathes of them by lightning is great fun. The Aura of Fire sustain is absolutely amazing, making my Wild Infusion almost worthless. Or possibly way more useful since I then can use it as damage mitigation rather than save it to get rid of debuffs- I'll have to think about that.
However, there are some things I'm not sure about. I think that the Arcane Feed sustain goes against the idea of the Arcane Blade- "they do not naturally regenerate mana and must find external means of restoring it" doesn't work with the fact that for a very small amount of stamina they can get the same mana regen as any other mage.
Other things, however, seem weirdly balanced. Air stance, for example, at around level 20ish, can without really trying give >25 accuracy and >25 Lightning per hit. The Air arcane combat also hits things around corners and behind where you are hitting. The Fire stance gives a huge bonus on Physical Power which makes several Water and Earth powers better from Fire Stance, a good crit % bonus and has a large cone of fire.
The Water stance, on the other hand, gives a measly +25% extra healing and a small (about 0.5% of max health or precisely diddly squat) health regeneration. You know, I don't think I've ever used my basic health regen as restoring health during a fight. And it's special attack is a beam- slightly better than lightning in long corridors but otherwise useless against a group. I never use Water stance if I can possibly help it. Give it something useful instead- you could:
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The main problem I've found so far is that I have barely any methods for fighting at range. Specifically, the fight with the sacrifice where you have 12 turns to kill four mages, with an extra 5 rounds or so every kill. Now, admittedly, you get up to five methods to get close- level 5 Phase Door, Tidal Rush, Whirlwind Teleport, Rolling Earth, and possibly an item with Rush.
However, an individual Arcane Blade may have just one or two of these, and with them being four mages spread out, running away, with possibly shields and nearly 900hp each, there is basically no chance of getting all four.
Now I have to admit something shameful: I got so frustrated at the one turn left point that I save scummed and tried the fight out a couple of ways, rearranging my points to add Tidal Rush and having a few goes. Nothing worked. They kept running away, and since I only had three methods of getting close (Rush, with an 80 cooldown, 1 point in Tidal Rush and 1 point in Whirlwind Teleport) the best I could do was kill two, and that took about five tries. Now I understand that it is a roguelike and that you aren't supposed to win everything with all characters, but I managed to beat that fight with a Bulwark the first time I came upon it. I have no idea why it was so hard for the Arcane Blade.
Some parts of this I absolutely love. Air Stance when theres a horde nearby that keeps killing swathes of them by lightning is great fun. The Aura of Fire sustain is absolutely amazing, making my Wild Infusion almost worthless. Or possibly way more useful since I then can use it as damage mitigation rather than save it to get rid of debuffs- I'll have to think about that.
However, there are some things I'm not sure about. I think that the Arcane Feed sustain goes against the idea of the Arcane Blade- "they do not naturally regenerate mana and must find external means of restoring it" doesn't work with the fact that for a very small amount of stamina they can get the same mana regen as any other mage.
Other things, however, seem weirdly balanced. Air stance, for example, at around level 20ish, can without really trying give >25 accuracy and >25 Lightning per hit. The Air arcane combat also hits things around corners and behind where you are hitting. The Fire stance gives a huge bonus on Physical Power which makes several Water and Earth powers better from Fire Stance, a good crit % bonus and has a large cone of fire.
The Water stance, on the other hand, gives a measly +25% extra healing and a small (about 0.5% of max health or precisely diddly squat) health regeneration. You know, I don't think I've ever used my basic health regen as restoring health during a fight. And it's special attack is a beam- slightly better than lightning in long corridors but otherwise useless against a group. I never use Water stance if I can possibly help it. Give it something useful instead- you could:
- Remove the "Drain Water of Life" and instead make the stance drain 5-20% of damage done as health. Or even just make it drain 5-10 hp per weapon hit.
- Have something like 2-5% of damage taken 'flow' outwards and hurts enemies within 1 radius.
- Reduce mana cost of Heal and Healing Waters while in it, and increase the speed of casting them and activating healing infusions to encourage switching to Water and Healing and getting more healing actions off.
- The arcane combat effect could even be healing yourself- you obviously don't have all four elements identical in capability since Fire doesn't have any ranged capabilities.
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The main problem I've found so far is that I have barely any methods for fighting at range. Specifically, the fight with the sacrifice where you have 12 turns to kill four mages, with an extra 5 rounds or so every kill. Now, admittedly, you get up to five methods to get close- level 5 Phase Door, Tidal Rush, Whirlwind Teleport, Rolling Earth, and possibly an item with Rush.
However, an individual Arcane Blade may have just one or two of these, and with them being four mages spread out, running away, with possibly shields and nearly 900hp each, there is basically no chance of getting all four.
Now I have to admit something shameful: I got so frustrated at the one turn left point that I save scummed and tried the fight out a couple of ways, rearranging my points to add Tidal Rush and having a few goes. Nothing worked. They kept running away, and since I only had three methods of getting close (Rush, with an 80 cooldown, 1 point in Tidal Rush and 1 point in Whirlwind Teleport) the best I could do was kill two, and that took about five tries. Now I understand that it is a roguelike and that you aren't supposed to win everything with all characters, but I managed to beat that fight with a Bulwark the first time I came upon it. I have no idea why it was so hard for the Arcane Blade.
Re: Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class
Glad to hear that.Immet wrote:Been playing this rework (v12) of the class out for a while and hugely enjoying it- way more than the default. I've been playing as a Higher and completely ignoring the Stone tree, focusing on Air and Fire with an occasional freeze and heal from Water.
Arcane feed was present in the Arcane blade since its inception in one form or another. Way back when it converted a chunk of stamina to magic as an activate. Later it was made into a sustain to provide mana over time. So I believe Darkgod intends Arcane Blades to recover mana, but at a cost. Now remember, you're not just paying stamina, there's an opportunity cost in the talent points spent on it as well. Previously it was 5 class points to get the basic mana regen of a mage as the original Arcane blade, and now its 5 generic points, arguably even more precious. It also prevent players from completely messing up a character if they remove their mana rune accidentally and don't have the cash or opportunity to buy a new one.Immet wrote: However, there are some things I'm not sure about. I think that the Arcane Feed sustain goes against the idea of the Arcane Blade- "they do not naturally regenerate mana and must find external means of restoring it" doesn't work with the fact that for a very small amount of stamina they can get the same mana regen as any other mage.
Its also a quality of life consideration. Hitting rest, mana rune, rest, mana rune is tedious when compared to a single rest command.
These values were roughly gauged by me, to be similar to what you might expect from a 5/5 point investment in similar skills. I.e. Fiery Hands in the original Arcane blade could provide a similar amount of fire damage on hit to the lightning, and 4/10 combat accuracy could provide a similar amount of accuracy.Immet wrote: Other things, however, seem weirdly balanced. Air stance, for example, at around level 20ish, can without really trying give >25 accuracy and >25 Lightning per hit. The Air arcane combat also hits things around corners and behind where you are hitting. The Fire stance gives a huge bonus on Physical Power which makes several Water and Earth powers better from Fire Stance, a good crit % bonus and has a large cone of fire.
Fire stance provides something not dissimilar to the original Arcane Destruction talent, but in its post physical power rescaling form. And so on.
I felt I couldn't justify much more regeneration because there's already a skill out there called Fast Metabolism, which provides +1 regen per talent point, or +5.0 regen at 5/5. Now you can argue about the quality of said talent, but I felt I had to limit any general regen bonus to be on that level or less. The only other skill that provides a Heal mod bonus I know of is Bathe in Light, which also provides around 20-40% heal mod in mid to late game.Immet wrote: The Water stance, on the other hand, gives a measly +25% extra healing and a small (about 0.5% of max health or precisely diddly squat) health regeneration. You know, I don't think I've ever used my basic health regen as restoring health during a fight.
I could perhaps switch the second effect from health regen to a heal on hit, something to the tune of (Spell Power / 20) * Arcane Stance Level per hit. In the level 20s, that would be around 12.5 hit points per hit. It would cap out at 100 spellpower with 30 hit points per hit.Immet wrote: And it's special attack is a beam- slightly better than lightning in long corridors but otherwise useless against a group. I never use Water stance if I can possibly help it. Give it something useful instead- you could:Basically, if its supposed to be a healing, defensive, two weapon style, make it actually heal me in a relevant way that is better when I have two weapons.
- Remove the "Drain Water of Life" and instead make the stance drain 5-20% of damage done as health. Or even just make it drain 5-10 hp per weapon hit.
- Have something like 2-5% of damage taken 'flow' outwards and hurts enemies within 1 radius.
- Reduce mana cost of Heal and Healing Waters while in it, and increase the speed of casting them and activating healing infusions to encourage switching to Water and Healing and getting more healing actions off.
- The arcane combat effect could even be healing yourself- you obviously don't have all four elements identical in capability since Fire doesn't have any ranged capabilities.
I don't think there's anything shameful about testing a class that needs testing.Immet wrote: The main problem I've found so far is that I have barely any methods for fighting at range. Specifically, the fight with the sacrifice where you have 12 turns to kill four mages, with an extra 5 rounds or so every kill. Now, admittedly, you get up to five methods to get close- level 5 Phase Door, Tidal Rush, Whirlwind Teleport, Rolling Earth, and possibly an item with Rush.
However, an individual Arcane Blade may have just one or two of these, and with them being four mages spread out, running away, with possibly shields and nearly 900hp each, there is basically no chance of getting all four.
Now I have to admit something shameful: I got so frustrated at the one turn left point that I save scummed and tried the fight out a couple of ways, rearranging my points to add Tidal Rush and having a few goes. Nothing worked. They kept running away, and since I only had three methods of getting close (Rush, with an 80 cooldown, 1 point in Tidal Rush and 1 point in Whirlwind Teleport) the best I could do was kill two, and that took about five tries. Now I understand that it is a roguelike and that you aren't supposed to win everything with all characters, but I managed to beat that fight with a Bulwark the first time I came upon it. I have no idea why it was so hard for the Arcane Blade.

The reasons you're likely having trouble compared to a Bulwark are:
1) No Step Up, which is an incredible movement ability - after each kill, you're at the next target already.
2) No stuns on low cooldowns - Stuns reduce damage output, and more importantly in this case, reduce the movement speed of the affected individual, allowing you to get more hits in.
3) No Rush with daze at the end. Rush is an incredible combo move, allowing you to get there, do a better than bump attack, and then follow up with something that keeps the target within reach.
4) Poor controlled burst damage. The Arcane blade as currently designed oddly has few significant burst skill on demand. A high level Tornado strike is one option of the few options. In the 20s, Arcane Combat is generally not reliable burst, and too dependent on luck. Bulwarks have access to Blinding Speed, Assault and Overpower, which can cause a frightening amount of damage in a short time.
The class naturally has a fair bit of Aoe, in the Strike at high levels, as well as the Arcane Combat triggers, whirlwind and inferno cleave, plus the spell schools. But it does poorly at single target damage. Almost all single target attack skills are on a 150% damage at 5/5 scale, and only 1.0 mastery. It has no speed boost. Mark of Fire is similar in regards to damage, but if the targets are moving rather than standing and taking it, its effectiveness drops greatly compared to a straight up 50% speed boost.
The class may be in need of some across the board damage boosts. Comparing typical damage outputs to a level 50 Archer with all purples, for example, the Archer tended to be doing similar or better damage, at range. Typical 60% speed weapon combined with Rapid Fire yields attack speeds of 36% or so with 250ish damage each hit (and not crit chance). Roughly 750 damage per normal round. Running aim in that setup has a ~75% crit chance, which puts out 360ish damage, 550 damage on crits, at attack speed 80%. Roughly 628 damage per round. Throw in a single skill like steady shot every 3 turns, , which bumps damage per attack up to 550ish on crits (75% of the time), at 80% attack speed. A simple steady shot every 3 turns is +145% damage. Which boosts rapid fire to 850ish damage per round, or aim to 850ish per round.
A similarly equipped and level 50 Arcane Blade will tend to be doing 250 per hit, another 200-250 60-75% of the time with the Arcane Combat trigger, for around 400ish damage per turn at normal attack speed. Actually using a 150% damage attack adds another 125 or so damage per use. Nominally you could use an elemental strike every other attack (4 strikes, 8 turn cooldown), for 450-500 damage per round, still far short of the 850+ of an archer.
In regards to getting ranged strikers to stand and fight, I could for example add a movement slowing debuff to the mark of fire effect, say a 50% movement speed penalty for having "hot feet".
The other thing to realize, is that Arcane blades do have access to the fire, water, earth, and air spell trees, which do include ranged attacks and some debuffs (Freeze in the water tree comes to mind).
Re: Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class
I modified Water stance as noted in the previous post. Instead of providing regen, it provides (Spell power / 20) * (1 + Arcane Stance Level) life on a melee hit, which means dual wielding can trigger it twice on a bump attack, for example. See first post for the new .teaa file.
As for the crypt, its possbile with the new Arcane Blade, but I've found it requires a fairly specific equipment setup, plus some luck it seems (well timed crits, not so much invisibility triggers for the elves, etc). I did succeed with a character who had boots of rush, a movement infusion, 5/5 phase door, 1 point in Whirlwind Teleport, Tidal Rush, and Rolling Earth. Which is 5 movement abilities plus a pull. In addition 4 points in Earth strike for pinning 3 turns every 8. Some lucky crits allowed one run to finish with about 10 turns to spare - however it wasn't a particularly high crit build. Doing it again with the same build failed miserably.
Not sure what to do about that. Possibly nothing. The crypt isn't intended to be equally easily done on all character types. And the Arcane Blade is consciously designed to be a "melee" mage initially. You need to be in contact with your enemy to start dealing damage, although once there, you can start doing some reasonable AoE damage. Of course, "AoE" and "melee" may not be the best combination for a character's health.
Also, while the class has multiple "get you in combat" abilities, the question is how effective are they compared to something like the Rush/Step Up combination available on Bulwarks, for example.
I'm open to opinions on current damage output. The class I think has good movement and possibly good defense depending on how the character is spec'd. I believe I've been conservative in damage output, since I've nerfed Arcane Combat to trigger on single attacks, the trees are at 1.0 mastery multipliers, and the damage for the triggers is depedent on essentially the number of points in each tree, as opposed to a single talent which is much easier to get to 5/5.
Similarly, there's no real replacement for the old pre-B35 Arcane Destruction, which pushed base melee bump damage by 50% or more.
Other thoughts:
Generic points:
I may leave the Aegis tree in, simply because between Conveyance, Arcane Veteran, Aegis, and Combat Training, you really can't take everything (plus any and all racial trees). The question is, are the Arcane Veteran skills compelling enough to drop damage/accuracy (Combat Accuracy/Weapon Mastery), defense (Aegis), or movement (Conveyance). Admittedly resource recovery can be powerful, although I'm not sure if the values are right to make it competitive with those other trees.
Then there's the last talent in the Arcane Veteran tree, Master Blade, which currently does fit into the theme, and I'm finding it lackluster in a lot of situations. I just leave it off most of the time so as to keep more resources free. The disarm resistance is nice against certain enemies, but that list of enemies is fairly small. The deflection comes up far less often, at least at low levels, than one might expect. Certainly in the up to 20/25 ish level game, I found it useful in only a handful of situations, like Urkis. In the crypt for example, a majority of the spell attacks seem to lack the reflectable flag.
So I'm thinking Master Blade needs to be made more generically useful, or perhaps completely altered in favor of something more in theme with the tree, which seems to be resource manipulation.
As for the crypt, its possbile with the new Arcane Blade, but I've found it requires a fairly specific equipment setup, plus some luck it seems (well timed crits, not so much invisibility triggers for the elves, etc). I did succeed with a character who had boots of rush, a movement infusion, 5/5 phase door, 1 point in Whirlwind Teleport, Tidal Rush, and Rolling Earth. Which is 5 movement abilities plus a pull. In addition 4 points in Earth strike for pinning 3 turns every 8. Some lucky crits allowed one run to finish with about 10 turns to spare - however it wasn't a particularly high crit build. Doing it again with the same build failed miserably.
Not sure what to do about that. Possibly nothing. The crypt isn't intended to be equally easily done on all character types. And the Arcane Blade is consciously designed to be a "melee" mage initially. You need to be in contact with your enemy to start dealing damage, although once there, you can start doing some reasonable AoE damage. Of course, "AoE" and "melee" may not be the best combination for a character's health.
Also, while the class has multiple "get you in combat" abilities, the question is how effective are they compared to something like the Rush/Step Up combination available on Bulwarks, for example.
I'm open to opinions on current damage output. The class I think has good movement and possibly good defense depending on how the character is spec'd. I believe I've been conservative in damage output, since I've nerfed Arcane Combat to trigger on single attacks, the trees are at 1.0 mastery multipliers, and the damage for the triggers is depedent on essentially the number of points in each tree, as opposed to a single talent which is much easier to get to 5/5.
Similarly, there's no real replacement for the old pre-B35 Arcane Destruction, which pushed base melee bump damage by 50% or more.
Other thoughts:
Generic points:
I may leave the Aegis tree in, simply because between Conveyance, Arcane Veteran, Aegis, and Combat Training, you really can't take everything (plus any and all racial trees). The question is, are the Arcane Veteran skills compelling enough to drop damage/accuracy (Combat Accuracy/Weapon Mastery), defense (Aegis), or movement (Conveyance). Admittedly resource recovery can be powerful, although I'm not sure if the values are right to make it competitive with those other trees.
Then there's the last talent in the Arcane Veteran tree, Master Blade, which currently does fit into the theme, and I'm finding it lackluster in a lot of situations. I just leave it off most of the time so as to keep more resources free. The disarm resistance is nice against certain enemies, but that list of enemies is fairly small. The deflection comes up far less often, at least at low levels, than one might expect. Certainly in the up to 20/25 ish level game, I found it useful in only a handful of situations, like Urkis. In the crypt for example, a majority of the spell attacks seem to lack the reflectable flag.
So I'm thinking Master Blade needs to be made more generically useful, or perhaps completely altered in favor of something more in theme with the tree, which seems to be resource manipulation.
Re: Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class
Updated the addon for 3.9.38. Its now available on the addons page. Latest version is 16.
Balance changes:
Tidal Rush now pins the final target for 1/1/2/2/3 turns. This is to give it the Rush type "stick around" so I can hit you" effect, although the target can still do stuff unlike daze.
Mark of fire now causes affected enemies to suffer a -50% movement speed penalty, in addition to taking 50% more damage from all sources. This means if you're chasing a ranged striker through the area, you're not just wasting the effect.
I've also reinstated the debuff affects on the AoEs of the Elemental Strikes, in addition to making the AoE area be 0/1/1/2/2. The AoE now starts with any talent points, as opposed to at 4 or more. This boosts the single target damage effectiveness of the strikes at low levels.
Balance changes:
Tidal Rush now pins the final target for 1/1/2/2/3 turns. This is to give it the Rush type "stick around" so I can hit you" effect, although the target can still do stuff unlike daze.
Mark of fire now causes affected enemies to suffer a -50% movement speed penalty, in addition to taking 50% more damage from all sources. This means if you're chasing a ranged striker through the area, you're not just wasting the effect.
I've also reinstated the debuff affects on the AoEs of the Elemental Strikes, in addition to making the AoE area be 0/1/1/2/2. The AoE now starts with any talent points, as opposed to at 4 or more. This boosts the single target damage effectiveness of the strikes at low levels.
Re: Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class
Minor but impressive bug(?) with wind storm: One, it reduces global speed, not movement, which may be intentional. Two, it triggers spellshock with regularity, which basically makes it a -20% resall debuff for most things in its radius. The latter, at least, probably isn't intentional (and may need nerfing if so).
Also, it probably should either not be able to be shrugged off or not force a recheck every turn. As is, it forces another check immediately after being shrugged off.
Also, it probably should either not be able to be shrugged off or not force a recheck every turn. As is, it forces another check immediately after being shrugged off.
Re: Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class
Finally trying this out... A few points:
Magical combat
1. Arcane Combat - I really hate the increasing damage with talent point investment. It encourages focussing on a single tree, which is bad for tactics and quite boring for gameplay. The different types of effects on hit are cool, but since the game encourages focus on one I focus on earth, as a big radius attack is generally best. It's a bit too powerful maybe - I'd suggest making stone a higher damage single target attack. Also change air to do slightly more randomised damage (in theme with the air tree). With water changed to a healing effect this would make the difference in stances much more noticeable overall, and make choosing between stances a real tactical choice rather than thinking purely about high damage.
2. Arcane Stance - It's a bit hard to tell what this actually does. Would be helpful if the stance effects were more clearly listed in the different Strike talent descriptions.
3. Arcane Prowess - Good, and not too powerful. However it might be nice if this gave a straight boost to Magic, like the Temporal Warden spells do, so it's easy to get the requisites for the spell trees.
4. Arcane Destruction - Very weak effect, not worth any investment even without the sustain cost. The +% per element should maybe be doubled (except for physical I guess).
Arcane Veteran
1. Arcane Stamina - Worthless :P Generics are valuable things, and this really don't cut it! Stamina isn't a big problem for the class, and this gives barely any anyway. Not sure if it should be revamped into a stamina regen on strike, or just changed into something different altogether.
2. Arcane Feed - This feels less worthwhile than it used to now it's on generic. Maybe it should add an extra weapon proc that regens x mana on strikes now and then? That would make it more interesting, and in theme with the rest of the class.
3. Arcane Armor - Kinda nice for the fatigue loss, but the armour gain doesn't compare too well to the benefits of the Armour Training talent. With the added sustain cost it's not worth investing in.
4. Master Blade - Hard to tell if this is worthwhile or not. I get the feeling not, but I'm curious to hear of others' experiences.
Lifetide / Healing Waters - Would be more interesting as a Regen over x turns, so it's not just copying the Aegis Heal.
Stoneshield / Sandblast - A bit too wyrmicy. Knockback could be more appropriate, with extra damage.
Stoneshield / Earthen Shield - Make it insta-cast.
Blazebrand / Aura of Fire - Make it insta-cast.
In general the elemental Strikes have a bit too much symmetry I think, and could do with being made a little more individual. A bit like with some of the suggestions I made for Arcane Combat.
Locked trees:
Aegis and Conveyance are good options to have, whilst also being hard to pick as generics are in short supply. A nice balance :)
The elemental spell trees are a bit of a joke on the class. I don't know why anyone would take them. They should just be removed.
Cunning / Survival should maybe be unlocked from the start, as I don't see anyone putting a category point into it.
Dirty Fighting would be good to have locked, since it would open the option for a targeted stun.
The advanced elemental trees (Wildfire etc) might be nice to have locked, since some of these would synergise well with the talents, and would offer a way to focus even more on an individual element.
Combat Techniques and Combat Veteran would be good to have as locked options, as they can be nice places to sink spare class points. They fit well with the class abilities too.
Will give further thoughts as I play on... Right now though the encouragement to invest in a single tree is immensely offputting, as it's stopping me from fully explore the class's abilities.
Magical combat
1. Arcane Combat - I really hate the increasing damage with talent point investment. It encourages focussing on a single tree, which is bad for tactics and quite boring for gameplay. The different types of effects on hit are cool, but since the game encourages focus on one I focus on earth, as a big radius attack is generally best. It's a bit too powerful maybe - I'd suggest making stone a higher damage single target attack. Also change air to do slightly more randomised damage (in theme with the air tree). With water changed to a healing effect this would make the difference in stances much more noticeable overall, and make choosing between stances a real tactical choice rather than thinking purely about high damage.
2. Arcane Stance - It's a bit hard to tell what this actually does. Would be helpful if the stance effects were more clearly listed in the different Strike talent descriptions.
3. Arcane Prowess - Good, and not too powerful. However it might be nice if this gave a straight boost to Magic, like the Temporal Warden spells do, so it's easy to get the requisites for the spell trees.
4. Arcane Destruction - Very weak effect, not worth any investment even without the sustain cost. The +% per element should maybe be doubled (except for physical I guess).
Arcane Veteran
1. Arcane Stamina - Worthless :P Generics are valuable things, and this really don't cut it! Stamina isn't a big problem for the class, and this gives barely any anyway. Not sure if it should be revamped into a stamina regen on strike, or just changed into something different altogether.
2. Arcane Feed - This feels less worthwhile than it used to now it's on generic. Maybe it should add an extra weapon proc that regens x mana on strikes now and then? That would make it more interesting, and in theme with the rest of the class.
3. Arcane Armor - Kinda nice for the fatigue loss, but the armour gain doesn't compare too well to the benefits of the Armour Training talent. With the added sustain cost it's not worth investing in.
4. Master Blade - Hard to tell if this is worthwhile or not. I get the feeling not, but I'm curious to hear of others' experiences.
Lifetide / Healing Waters - Would be more interesting as a Regen over x turns, so it's not just copying the Aegis Heal.
Stoneshield / Sandblast - A bit too wyrmicy. Knockback could be more appropriate, with extra damage.
Stoneshield / Earthen Shield - Make it insta-cast.
Blazebrand / Aura of Fire - Make it insta-cast.
In general the elemental Strikes have a bit too much symmetry I think, and could do with being made a little more individual. A bit like with some of the suggestions I made for Arcane Combat.
Locked trees:
Aegis and Conveyance are good options to have, whilst also being hard to pick as generics are in short supply. A nice balance :)
The elemental spell trees are a bit of a joke on the class. I don't know why anyone would take them. They should just be removed.
Cunning / Survival should maybe be unlocked from the start, as I don't see anyone putting a category point into it.
Dirty Fighting would be good to have locked, since it would open the option for a targeted stun.
The advanced elemental trees (Wildfire etc) might be nice to have locked, since some of these would synergise well with the talents, and would offer a way to focus even more on an individual element.
Combat Techniques and Combat Veteran would be good to have as locked options, as they can be nice places to sink spare class points. They fit well with the class abilities too.
Will give further thoughts as I play on... Right now though the encouragement to invest in a single tree is immensely offputting, as it's stopping me from fully explore the class's abilities.
Re: Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class
On further reflection, the stance bonuses may be bad in general. There's a lot of stats already flying around, and these extra bonuses to consider are an over-complication. It would be better to incorporate the most relevant bonuses into the different effects in the arcane proc or the spell trees.
Overall I'd say the Arcane Veteran tree should be scrapped and Arcane Feed or something like it moved into Magical Combat as a replacement for Arcane Stance.
Overall I'd say the Arcane Veteran tree should be scrapped and Arcane Feed or something like it moved into Magical Combat as a replacement for Arcane Stance.
Re: Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class
A few thoughts after winning with one earlier today in b38, character dump is here http://te4.org/characters/7616/tome/753 ... 3ed0f1ab22
First, the reworked AB is super super super fun. Have to get that out of the way! I like it very much.
Second, in response to some of Grey's points since he's in the middle of trying it out:
1) Master Blade is insane. With it maxed you're checking your acc vs enemy spell power to deflect what seems to be all single target spells. If you level combat accuracy and aren't shy to stack some on your gear, you can negate monstrous amounts of spell damage--The Master couldn't even land his nukes on me, and during the last boss my combat log was spammed with spell deflections. It's monstrously good, and might need to be toned down (perhaps make it deflect partial damage, maybe make the accuracy check at 5/5 not use your full accuracy, I don't know, I'm not so much a design/ideas guy
).
On the other hand, I went out of my way to focus on keeping my accuracy high (check the dumplog at the top), so my experiences may be very very biased--for all I know, for people who choose not to do that it could be worthless.
2) Arcane Armor is similarly nice. The fatigue loss is great and the armor boost gets amazing with the better and better armor. In my character log I had over 90 armor without a shield and without earth stance. Of course, armor isn't the end-all be-all at the endgame, but it's a welcome addition while keeping down the costs of other things.
3) Arcane Stamina adds up pretty well later on. I was rocking like 12 sustains by the endgame, and I really wish I had put it up to 2/5 or 3/5 at least since I was spamming Fire Strike and Inferno Cleave like a madman. Really depends, though.
4) Aura of Fire and Earthen Shield are already instant cast... well, unless they weren't in older versions, anyway. They definitely are in the newest.
5) Not sure why you're so down on Arcane Destruction. It makes stacking +element damage if you're trying to focus on one element a great idea since your bump attacks will take on whatever element you want, and then you get a free 10% boost to that and 50% resist penetration. Depending on what kind of gear you find, being able to change your bump attack's element can be really really handy. Of course, I didn't find a Fiery Choker... grumble.
6) You don't really need to focus on one element as much as you're thinking. I maxed the entire Magical Combat tree, and still had room to max out 3/4 of the Water skills and pick up max Earthen Shield, on top of maxing the Fire tree. You'd have even more freedom if you didn't choose to max everything in magical combat. That said, I was intentionally going for a 2-handed fire specced build anyway, so that might just be me.
That aside, some other general thoughts..
- Master Blade seems a little too good as earlier noted. I really like it, but the amount of incoming damage it mitigated was astronomical.
- Access to Aegis, Earthen Shield, and 2 direct heals (Heal and Healing Water from the water tree) on top of a sorta-direct heal (Drain Water of Life) seems a tad nutty. This on top of Arcane Armor, Master Blade, and some of the stance bonuses seems like too much survivability! Not that I mind it since some fights still managed to put me in my place pretty well, but it does seem like a bit much on paper.
- Aura of Fire... I'm divided. It's really really good, perhaps too good, but it has a drawback that can really wear you down in extended fights, or ones that involve heavy debuff spam, and does nothing for you at low hp. I like the idea of it though, and I like the idea behind its drawback.
I can't comment terribly much on the non-fire elements although I do plan on trying a couple of other themed builds (one focusing on earth with sword and shield, last one will probably be air/water dual-wielding with some fire shenanigans for the purifying flames on Fire Strike, which are a very, VERY welcome effect on the skill, might I add.)
That was kind of all over the place (sorry!) but on the whole I really do like the redesign and I look forward to toying around with it some more.
First, the reworked AB is super super super fun. Have to get that out of the way! I like it very much.
Second, in response to some of Grey's points since he's in the middle of trying it out:
1) Master Blade is insane. With it maxed you're checking your acc vs enemy spell power to deflect what seems to be all single target spells. If you level combat accuracy and aren't shy to stack some on your gear, you can negate monstrous amounts of spell damage--The Master couldn't even land his nukes on me, and during the last boss my combat log was spammed with spell deflections. It's monstrously good, and might need to be toned down (perhaps make it deflect partial damage, maybe make the accuracy check at 5/5 not use your full accuracy, I don't know, I'm not so much a design/ideas guy

On the other hand, I went out of my way to focus on keeping my accuracy high (check the dumplog at the top), so my experiences may be very very biased--for all I know, for people who choose not to do that it could be worthless.
2) Arcane Armor is similarly nice. The fatigue loss is great and the armor boost gets amazing with the better and better armor. In my character log I had over 90 armor without a shield and without earth stance. Of course, armor isn't the end-all be-all at the endgame, but it's a welcome addition while keeping down the costs of other things.
3) Arcane Stamina adds up pretty well later on. I was rocking like 12 sustains by the endgame, and I really wish I had put it up to 2/5 or 3/5 at least since I was spamming Fire Strike and Inferno Cleave like a madman. Really depends, though.
4) Aura of Fire and Earthen Shield are already instant cast... well, unless they weren't in older versions, anyway. They definitely are in the newest.
5) Not sure why you're so down on Arcane Destruction. It makes stacking +element damage if you're trying to focus on one element a great idea since your bump attacks will take on whatever element you want, and then you get a free 10% boost to that and 50% resist penetration. Depending on what kind of gear you find, being able to change your bump attack's element can be really really handy. Of course, I didn't find a Fiery Choker... grumble.
6) You don't really need to focus on one element as much as you're thinking. I maxed the entire Magical Combat tree, and still had room to max out 3/4 of the Water skills and pick up max Earthen Shield, on top of maxing the Fire tree. You'd have even more freedom if you didn't choose to max everything in magical combat. That said, I was intentionally going for a 2-handed fire specced build anyway, so that might just be me.

That aside, some other general thoughts..
- Master Blade seems a little too good as earlier noted. I really like it, but the amount of incoming damage it mitigated was astronomical.
- Access to Aegis, Earthen Shield, and 2 direct heals (Heal and Healing Water from the water tree) on top of a sorta-direct heal (Drain Water of Life) seems a tad nutty. This on top of Arcane Armor, Master Blade, and some of the stance bonuses seems like too much survivability! Not that I mind it since some fights still managed to put me in my place pretty well, but it does seem like a bit much on paper.
- Aura of Fire... I'm divided. It's really really good, perhaps too good, but it has a drawback that can really wear you down in extended fights, or ones that involve heavy debuff spam, and does nothing for you at low hp. I like the idea of it though, and I like the idea behind its drawback.
I can't comment terribly much on the non-fire elements although I do plan on trying a couple of other themed builds (one focusing on earth with sword and shield, last one will probably be air/water dual-wielding with some fire shenanigans for the purifying flames on Fire Strike, which are a very, VERY welcome effect on the skill, might I add.)
That was kind of all over the place (sorry!) but on the whole I really do like the redesign and I look forward to toying around with it some more.
Re: Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class
Early on it was pretty useless - 0.1 Stamina per round. I think this is a problem with a lot of the talents. They get very strong later on, but at the start they're very underwhelming. Perhaps there needs to be a better balance inbetween.Judecca wrote: 3) Arcane Stamina adds up pretty well later on. I was rocking like 12 sustains by the endgame, and I really wish I had put it up to 2/5 or 3/5 at least since I was spamming Fire Strike and Inferno Cleave like a madman. Really depends, though.
Again it's an early game problem. One is discouraged from branching out into several trees as maxing up skills gives better AC damage. It makes quite a difference too. Later on it might balance out when you fill several trees but at the start there's a strong incentive to specialise and improve damage output. I really hope this effect is removed as I find it takes away a lot of enjoyment from the class at the moment.6) You don't really need to focus on one element as much as you're thinking. I maxed the entire Magical Combat tree, and still had room to max out 3/4 of the Water skills and pick up max Earthen Shield, on top of maxing the Fire tree. You'd have even more freedom if you didn't choose to max everything in magical combat. That said, I was intentionally going for a 2-handed fire specced build anyway, so that might just be me. :P
Re: Addon reworking Arcane Blade Class
Just to clarify, .1 stamina per sustain -- including whatever stance you've got running. And arcane combat, and arcane stamina itself. Which is .3 right off the bat; slightly less than the passive stamina regen talent, but rapidly snowballing. It's pretty solid all around, early and late, when the way you're probably going to be running the AB (Read: Lots of sustains). If anything it might be a little excessive, heh.Grey wrote:Early on it was pretty useless - 0.1 Stamina per round. I think this is a problem with a lot of the talents. They get very strong later on, but at the start they're very underwhelming. Perhaps there needs to be a better balance inbetween.