Adding Replayability Especially Early Game

[Grey]

How about making these restrictions optional. Just like many roguelikes that give you option to enable/disable stairscumming, mob scumming, plus a number of other gameplay mechanics thus allowing everyone to play the way they enjoy the most from casual to hardcore. Tome used to offer many of these options... I power game myself, but I also enjoy experimenting with different playstyles. Just because the loudest voices tend to be the most picky, doesn't mean their particular view should limit others.

Funny you should mention stairscumming and mob scumming, since these are things which were specifically removed from ToME4 to make it more fun to play. Removing boring options = fun. Lots of people moaned before these changes were made of course, but I don't see anyone moaning about them any more. An important analogy there :P

Fighting all the t1 bosses takes a small bit of randomness from the game regarding low level artifacts and IMO less randomness is a good thing.

Eh? This is a roguelike - randomness is worshipped! And the whole topic of the thread is about adding replayability, with randomness being one of the best tools to achieve that.

Personally I'd like to see new zones for every class to go alongside restricted zones for each race. With some of the other unique starts it would mean a nice level of variety to every combo. I'll make a new thread for suggestions...

[Avianpilot]

It really boils down to this Avian, just because zones are optional doesn't mean that most players will view them as skippable. The rewards for doing every tier 1 dungeon are to high for most people to pass up (you get a level and an artifact at least out of each one) which turns the early game into a repetitive slog through easy dungeons.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm not a fan of removing the option to do these dungeons, but at least I see why some want it.

How about making these restrictions optional. Just like many roguelikes that give you option to enable/disable stairscumming, mob scumming, plus a number of other gameplay mechanics thus allowing everyone to play the way they enjoy the most from casual to hardcore.

This is essentially my opinion on the matter as well -- I really don't want there to be one 'true' way to play. I happen to like doing all of the starting dungeons (I must admit that I am something of a power gamer myself), so I don't want to see that option removed. If others feel that it is too grindy and refuse to stop grinding them, I don't know if there's really much anyone can do about it. I've played the game for a while now, but I still don't really consider myself good at it, and don't mind grinding a bit to get me to where I feel I can handle what's next. I used to be able to handle the Weirdling Beast when I was around level 16 with some characters, but after a few changes in betas I can't do it before 20 with them now. If I couldn't go anywhere else to get leveled up before the battle, I'm not sure if I'd persevere, quit, or cheat at that point.

Personally I'd like to see new zones for every class to go alongside restricted zones for each race. With some of the other unique starts it would mean a nice level of variety to every combo. I'll make a new thread for suggestions...

On a tangent, what I'd like to see regardless of whether or not racial starting zones get restricted, is for the human races to get their own zone. The Trollmire and Korpul has always been accessible to everyone, while other races had their own starts in addition. I don't want to see the two traditional human zones be locked off, but rather for them to get something special of their own. That's kind of antithetical to what the rest of the discussion is, as my suggestion would actually increase the number of starting zones (and thus is probably not going to be a popular idea), but it's something I'd like to see.

Rambling tangent: what if every race had its own individual starting zone(s), which would in essence be the 'Tier 0' zones? Have a few Tier 1 zones (not as many as there are now) to attempt afterward, then head on to Tier 2.

[Grey]

This is essentially my opinion on the matter as well -- I really don't want there to be one 'true' way to play. I happen to like doing all of the starting dungeons (I must admit that I am something of a power gamer myself), so I don't want to see that option removed. If others feel that it is too grindy and refuse to stop grinding them, I don't know if there's really much anyone can do about it. I've played the game for a while now, but I still don't really consider myself good at it, and don't mind grinding a bit to get me to where I feel I can handle what's next. I used to be able to handle the Weirdling Beast when I was around level 16 with some characters, but after a few changes in betas I can't do it before 20 with them now. If I couldn't go anywhere else to get leveled up before the battle, I'm not sure if I'd persevere, quit, or cheat at that point.

I'd personally say that's a problem with the Weirdling Beast which needs to be individually addressed. Same for some other things raised perhaps. Keeping grind options is not the optimal way to fix things which need individual attention. If anything it's bad to have them patched over by something like this.

[edge2054]

This is essentially my opinion on the matter as well -- I really don't want there to be one 'true' way to play. I happen to like doing all of the starting dungeons (I must admit that I am something of a power gamer myself), so I don't want to see that option removed. If others feel that it is too grindy and refuse to stop grinding them, I don't know if there's really much anyone can do about it. I've played the game for a while now, but I still don't really consider myself good at it, and don't mind grinding a bit to get me to where I feel I can handle what's next. I used to be able to handle the Weirdling Beast when I was around level 16 with some characters, but after a few changes in betas I can't do it before 20 with them now. If I couldn't go anywhere else to get leveled up before the battle, I'm not sure if I'd persevere, quit, or cheat at that point.

Right, but less grindy and repetitive options can be introduced if the power-curve needs to be kept the same. More low-level world map encounters, more Bill type extra zone bosses, etc.

I'm not suggesting tier 1 dungeons should be limited because I feel the power curve is off. I'm suggesting they should be limited because doing the same 6 dungeons at the start of every game before the game really even starts gets old.

[lenocinor]

Right, but less grindy and repetitive options can be introduced if the power-curve needs to be kept the same. More low-level world map encounters, more Bill type extra zone bosses, etc.

You know, that extra zone boss thing is a great idea for getting more levels and items for the people who want to go through the game with less dungeons. And to prevent people from doing the lower-level dungeons AND the extra zone bosses, just have the extra zone bosses disappear after the player completes a certain number of other dungeon levels (not other bosses, as players will still game this). Like you mentioned earlier, maybe "another adventurer got there first" kind of thing.

[tekrunner]

Because it gets really tedious doing the start dungeons over and over again and power-gamers feel the need to do every single dungeon to give themselves as much of an advantage as they can get before tackling tier 2 dungeons. (And I say that with no offense to power-gamers, I am something of one myself).

It's kind of weird for me to have that argument (that optional content is not actually optional to some players when it gives a significant advantage) used against me, when in other game communities I've used it myself quite a few times (as an aside, I'm a total powerplayer myself, but in roguelikes for me that usually means either trying to finish the game as fast as possible, game turn-wise, or finding game-breaking combos). The thing is, I don't feel like doing more than half of the starter dungeons gives you that great an advantage, but I'm probably wrong about that, given how more experienced players think it does.

Anyway, I think I was only seeing the negative consequences of such a change : less choice, fewer backup guardians (which are a great way to level up with very little tedium late-game), more potential limits on viable builds (the scintillating caverns are really hard for some classes). Also, only 2 starting areas would really not be enough for many to feel comfortable enough before they're ready for tier 2 dungeons. But I could totally get behind the kind of positive and wide-ranging revamp of starting areas that Grey is suggesting, to add variety between races. On the other hand, I feel like any system that involves disappearing bosses / zones on certain precise conditions would risk turning into a non-choice for experienced players (because there would be an optimal set of bosses / zones to complete, possibly depending on your class), while also adding a confusing element for new players.

[Nori]

I like the idea of far portal-like area and vaults for beginning areas, however I would really dislike it if we are limited to the two racial starting locations...

Take dwarves for instance. If I play a dwarf cursed and by some miracle make it past the first boss, I would then almost have to go to the bellow dungeon, since I wouldn't have access to trollmire etc... I rarely would do that though because that dungeon is very dangerous to lower leveled cursed... I like having the option to back out and do another low level dungeon to gain a level or two and possibly fine better equipment. If I didn't have that I would have a much higher death rate (and it already high enough). I really don't think players should be restricted in how they want to play. You say you feel a "compulsion" to do all starter dungeons. That sounds more like your problem than all the other players. You don't have to do the dungeons, but if you get rid of them then I have no choice anymore.

TL;DL: keep access to all dungeons, everyone has different playstyles and many people like the extra options more dungeons gives them.

[jotwebe]

Just to weigh in on the other side from the "waaah let us keep our kindergarten dungeons" crowd: I, too, feel compelled to do all that stuff, lest I miss wintertide on my undead. Compelled, I say

It's not just Edge and Grey.

[edge2054]

I don't want this to turn into a back and forth discussion based on 'differing play styles'.

I do most of the starting dungeons, I also find it tedious, I'm not suggesting this be changed because I'm incapable of exercising self control. I'm suggesting it be changed because I love this game and I want people to be playing it for years and years to come If something rewards tedium then we should look at it and ask ourselves if there's a better way to go about it.

[Varil]

To be fair, holding up examples of classes which "need" or "very badly could use" the extra dungeons for powering up(re: Dwarf Cursed) is more a show case of "this should be fixed" than anything to do with the dungeons themselves.

As for "I don't think the starter dungeons provide that much power...", you may be right! Generally after 2-3 dungeons, my characters power levels out. I might get 1-2 more levels for the remaining starter dungeons, but the *gear* is the important thing. Even relatively 'minor' artifacts can be incredibly useful for a long time, and even if my Bulwark already found the Crooked Club, I wouldn't mind finding the Summertide Phial just so I have a reusable area light. Or the Wintertide Phial. Or even some sort of artifact armor.

Aside from that, other random things I could find could be useful. Wands, staves of conveyance...just whatever active-use items I stumble across.

So I guess it's more about giving your character options than raw power. Early game is when your build is providing the fewest options, so the more gear you find to brace yourself up with, the better.

[lenocinor]

On the other hand, I feel like any system that involves disappearing bosses / zones on certain precise conditions would risk turning into a non-choice for experienced players (because there would be an optimal set of bosses / zones to complete, possibly depending on your class), while also adding a confusing element for new players.

Experienced players already don't have a choice: do all the dungeons or have less stuff and less levels. At least with this boss zone mechanic you have two (hopefully balanced) choices: play all the lower-level dungeons and level up slowly, at the cost of time, or play only hard dungeons and level up quickly, at the cost of difficulty. Both should end up with roughly the same stuff and levels at the end of the day, if implemented correctly.

But I agree that the mechanic of disappearing end zones could be confusing if not handled properly. Thinking through it a bit more, I can't see a good way to communicate to the player in a flavorful way -- that is, in a way that makes sense in the game world -- that the fight was gated based on the number of dungeon levels completed instead of time passed, which would be confusing since nothing else in ToME is based on time. (I feel that the alchemist potion quests suffer from a similar problem, for the record, since it's easy to miss that potions become unavailable when you make other potions, not when time passes.) So maybe this idea, while promising, is not right for ToME.

Still, I would very much like to see some way of letting experienced players do just as well by only playing the main story dungeons if they choose. The trick is to make sure that it cannot also be done by players who take their time (or we're back to the same old problem) while at the same time not seeming unfair or confusing to those players.

So why not an invisible solution: raise the item drop rate (including throwing in an artifact rarely) and give more experience per kill if the player is underleveled for a zone. This would solve most of the problems neatly. This still doesn't fix the fact that you'll get a bit more money and a few more artifacts if you go back and do the easy dungeons afterwards, but I think these are much less of an incentive if you're not hurting for items and levels like you would have been before.

EDIT: Another small consideration: I think that the "underleveled" number should vary based on the race you are playing, since different races have different power levels at the same experience level -- this is the whole reason XP racial penalties exist, after all. Technically, this should also apply to dungeon level scaling, which currently favors races with XP penalties in direct proportion to the size of their penalty.

[Dekar]

Just give me an addon that dumps all starter bosses together in a single, large zone and that gives me level 3 from the start to make me happy.

Trading boring starter zone exploration for one giant brawl? Yes please! Would be more streamlining than replayability though.

[Varil]

Oh, there's a neat idea. Close racially inappropriate zones, but after you complete "your" zones open special quests for the other starter towns that involve fighting both of their bosses(and a number of mooks) simultaneously. The "story" here is that since there was nobody around to curb the problems sooner(IE : the PC) they came to a head and are now a direct threat to the towns. "The strange creatures from the Heart of the Gloom have besieged our town, and driven the beasts of the forest into a frenzy alongside them! Please, kill the Weirdling Beast and the great bear, Norgos, before they destroy our home!" "The traitorous Rhaloren have gather some of the twisted crystals from the nearby Scintillating Cave and created a terrible force which threatens our home. Defeat Whatsherface and the Spellblaze Crystal before they become too powerful to defeat!" "Bill the Troll has gathered his strongest underlings and left the forest to take up residence near Kor'Pul. Their presence has disturbed the dark forces there, and we have heard that the Shade which dwells within has rallied its minions to seek out intruders. Clear out the trolls and undead, before their conflict threatens our homes!"

They'd probably work fine as "siege" style quests similar to the storm attack, but depending on plot they could also be placed into separate, 1 level maps. You'd pretty much have to for Derth, since it's got a lot going on.

[lenocinor]

Oh, there's a neat idea. Close racially inappropriate zones, but after you complete "your" zones open special quests for the other starter towns that involve fighting both of their bosses(and a number of mooks) simultaneously. The "story" here is that since there was nobody around to curb the problems sooner(IE : the PC) they came to a head and are now a direct threat to the towns.

Hmm, that is neat. You could use this idea to make some of the easy, uncleared dungeons into hard versions for players that were only playing the main dungeons, and it's easily justified for the reason you said. This also fixes the lack of items/levels for fast players and is still interesting because it would be more challenging. And if you only did it for a couple of the dungeons (picked at random) it wouldn't give players playing through the fast way much of an advantage over those playing the slow way. I like this idea a lot.

[overgoat]

Oh, there's a neat idea. Close racially inappropriate zones, but after you complete "your" zones open special quests for the other starter towns that involve fighting both of their bosses(and a number of mooks) simultaneously...

I really like this idea. I was thinking you could also have notes/lore randomly dropped by mobs that open that would make one of these available as a new quest that was leveled equal to the player upon first entering it.