Stairscumming?

[bricks]

Second (third?) on Unfinished Bone Giant (any boss is going to be difficult to the lack of healing/regen infusions), Weirdling Beast (too much healing/damage reduction/skill locking, nowhere to hide/recuperate except stairs), and Brotoq (Norgan gets killed really quickly, no way to clear Acid Blood or diseases unless you get lucky with drops, potential for three hits in one turn).

Bill can be really hard, though that's a very special situation, and the level is almost designed for stair-scumming. I continue to place most of the blame on Rush.

The entrances to the Prides just seem silly and cruel. The random boss alone can be a game-ender if they get Archer talents.

[Rectifier]

Not to mention teleporting fire and water orc mages who lay down aoe for a turn and then run, its almost asking the player to stairscum the first time they encounter them at those entrances.

Let's see the bosses mentioned so far were brotoq, bill, bone giant. The thing is with a decent starting class they are mincemeat.

But almost every melee class that goes against brotoq or bone giant has trouble. Brotoq will probably kill you with bad enough luck before you can stair scum (so players observe that and think, maybe i'll have a chance if i do this), and bone giant has so much sustain that its like..."okay i'll just stairscum so I don't get raped from his silly shield sustain."

Bill is...eh, I think its the level design partly to blame so I have no idea how it would work with a different layout, not to mention affect the coveted KILL BILL achievement.
He can be pretty mean to some classes, so the obvious solution to a player, since retreating is a great move in Tome, is..."ohhhhh so im supposed to retreat all the way and use the stairs because he's so op!!"

New players don't even have to know what abilities do, they just observe that if they try to duel these guys, they lose. So they stairscum instead.

I don't recommend changing these bosses unless stairs get changed since of the bosses mentioned, brotoq, bill, and bone giant are either bosses for an unlocked race or an extra boss for trollmire. They should be difficult. Some of the random/unique bosses tho hack so badly, we all know it.

**apparently dwarves aren't unlocked, nerf brotoq!

[bricks]

Dwarves aren't an unlocked race.

[Mithril]

Weirdling Best, while being level 20 gets stairscummed by level 12-14 characters because
-guaranteed easy access to stairs
-heals far too fast and at the same time has no space to escape to, to "reset" fight, unlike the Master fight where you can teleport away.
-grants access to the chest! Its just so handy. Why else would you fight such a powerful boss with an underleveled character?

Agree. The chest makes the game more fun so it would be nice to have it available sooner rather than later.

[tiger_eye]

The Unfinished Bone Giant is the only boss I would recommend nerfing. Melee classes have a really hard time against it, and the task was made more difficult when the depth of the zone was reduced, because the player hasn't gained as many levels.

Brotoq can be vicious (as can most bosses), but is made fair due to the help of Norgon and the use of tactical pillars. I don't know a single class that doesn't have a good chance of beating Brotoq regularly.

As for Bill, well, the level design kind of encourages stair-scumming if you want to retreat. No need to nerf Bill, though.

I really like the Weirdling Beast fight. It is a good test for any character, and it can reveal if you've made your character too defensive. I think it is unfortunate that stair-scumming is possible here. I think a different layout could help. For example, don't allow the player to return to the stairs while fighting the Weirdling Beast. But, still allow the player to retreat somewhere safe. I would do this by having a teleportation circle nearby that could teleport you to an unconnected room. This would let the player heal, but it also lets the Weirdling Beast recover.

[Frumple]

Brotoq could probably stand some looking at, really. The real issue with him is skullcleaver, which, if you're unlucky, can cause him to proc greater weapon mastery on you. I've seen him two-round Norgan, followed by myself with a similar number of rounds. Kiting him isn't very viable unless you luck out with a magical wild infusion coming up, as all that does is cause Bro to disease you to death.

Most classes can take Brotoq if he doesn't get lucky. If he does, the number which has much of a chance against him drops considerably, especially among the melee classes. You can bypass Brotoq, yes, but if he manages to get one of those 75+ damage rounds on you, there's a good chance he's going to disease you to death as you try to flee to the stairs out. Sometimes Bro is just going to brofist you to death. Maybe force the skullcleaver to be offhanded, I'unno. That wouldn't stop the blight damage from doubling up.

The Unfinished Bone Giant was about right when the BR was longer, yeah. Now, some classes are going to have trouble actually killing him, especially if drops are poor for the rest of the BR -- I've had a few cases where I simply didn't have the DPR to get its health down, making the giant effectively invincible. Some have trouble keeping alive vs. it, but kiting is fairly effective against th'bugger (Shield, fight 'till shield breaks, retreat until shield CDs, repeat). The giant can also be bypassed, should you manage to find the stairs out before it kills you, but unlike with Brotoq you can't come back for the delicious XP/loot. That makes stair abuse a lot more attractive.

[Canderel]

Brotoq has moved up to 2nd after bill on my all time kills. (and he only fights one race of characters)

IMO he needs a nerf, or perhaps another level to reknor (with the gained level) to ensure you're at least lvl 4 when you face him.

[tiger_eye]

I've died twice to Brotoq (and six times to Prox!), so I guess I've generally been lucky when I fight him (er, rather, I haven't gotten unlucky). Perhaps whatever he does when "he manages to get one of those 75+ damage rounds on you" could be nerfed.

[Mithril]

I really like the Weirdling Beast fight. It is a good test for any character, and it can reveal if you've made your character too defensive. I think it is unfortunate that stair-scumming is possible here. I think a different layout could help. For example, don't allow the player to return to the stairs while fighting the Weirdling Beast. But, still allow the player to retreat somewhere safe. I would do this by having a teleportation circle nearby that could teleport you to an unconnected room. This would let the player heal, but it also lets the Weirdling Beast recover.

The problem, as I see it, is the delay before getting the chest. Sure, you can wait a long time before going there and then defeat the monster easily. But this means that the chest becomes available much later in the game. Since it hugely reduces boring micromanagement this would be very unfortunate.

[Canderel]

I've died twice to Brotoq (and six times to Prox!), so I guess I've generally been lucky when I fight him (er, rather, I haven't gotten unlucky). Perhaps whatever he does when "he manages to get one of those 75+ damage rounds on you" could be nerfed.

How many dwarves have you played? All characters (can) fight prox, only dwarves can fight Brotoq. I doubt 1/3 of your characters were dwarves. Though perhaps only cornacs, highers, halflings should count towards this? And... did you not pop your regen infusion, or did he have some help?

Regarding the Weirding beast fight. I tend to agree with your statements, and think a different layout may help. But if you built your character too defensively? What then? Remember in a lot of cases it's not about defense or offensive skills, but rather "have you picked up a dwarven steel weapon"? (recall, and the fight "resets" I guess...)

Rogues and similar usually doesn't struggle too much. Recently I played 2 skeleton sun paladins to there. The one was owned, and the other hardly broke a sweat. The better of the two had picked up a faith shield, and probably had a better weapon. I think they were the same level.

[Atarlost]

I think the big problem is that teleport just isn't very good and there aren't other escapes anymore. If the level isn't clear it's unsafe. If the level isn't big it's not enough of an escape. If it is it's more boring than stairscumming because you not only have to rest and recuperate but also to trek back across the level to whatever you were fighting. If you could get targeted teleport from a rune early that would help improve safety, but it still wouldn't save frustration as long as load times are shorter than cross-level walk times. At least on flat dungeons evading leads you to the stairs as easily as not so you might as well stairscum.

Increasing load times just to prevent stairscumming is probably a good way to drive people completely away from the game.

[yufra]

Some anti-stairscumming measures have been added to the SVN already. Wait until b36 comes out and see what you think...

[greycat]

Some anti-stairscumming measures have been added to the SVN already. Wait until b36 comes out and see what you think...

WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!

Oh, right, he said wait. OK, I'll wait....

[Zonk]

For those who want to know what was changed: if you return to a level you left, the game will abstract the time spent away by giving life back to enemies, removing their detrimental effects, resetting their cooldowns...

[koolguydude2]

Okay, so, idea. There is a roguelike called Elona(nowhere near as good as TOME) which uses the resource "tiredness". This is increased by doing actions like cooking,using player skills (i.e. wrath of the woods), and using stairs and was stopped by resting. This could be adapted to TOME and I think it might work pretty well.