Change how rune slots work

[eronarn]

My characters pretty much all follow the same pattern once they are past L20: 5 runes, all as defensive as possible. There are several kinds of runes I wouldn't even consider slotting in because they take the place of far more important ones. This also applies to the artifact runes, which is really too bad.

I propose that the three starting rune slots become explicitly for Utility, Offensive, and Defensive runes. You can still buy two more slots with category points (or heck, allow a third point), but you can only have two runes in each category.

This would make characters weaker, but it would open the door to having more powerful runes, since there would be fewer interactions between them.

[Final Master]

Why do you need five inscription slots with every character?

And, what would this proposal actually change? You can only have 2 of any inscription currently anyway.

[lukep]

And, what would this proposal actually change? You can only have 2 of any inscription currently anyway.

You would be forced to have more variety in your inscriptions. Many different inscriptions have very similar effects, which would not be allowed to be stacked together if this is implemented. For example, Healing and Regen both heal your character, Movement infusion, Pd/CPD, and Teleport are all escape talents, with CPD and movement also being useful for closing on enemies, and all of the attack runes serve a similar function.

This would force much more variety into inscription setups, and my late game setup of Healing + regen + Wild + shield + teleport would no longer work under the proposed system, as it would still need to fill the "offensive-only" inscription slot.

[edge2054]

I like this idea depending on the definition of a defensive rune.

In other words, utility should be stuff like Wild, Teleport, Phase Door, Movement. If any of those where defensive I think it would be to big of a nerf.

Ultimately all this would do though is force players to pick up one attack rune and it would kinda suck for Anti-Magic characters since the only attack infusion is the poison one. But we could open the door for more interesting attack infusions too.

[eronarn]

Why do you need five inscription slots with every character?

Because that's the optimal use of category points.

And, what would this proposal actually change? You can only have 2 of any inscription currently anyway.

As stated, enforcing variety. Restrictions breed creativity!

I wasn't clear on what would be utility and what would be defensive because some runes would need to work differently depending on which combinations still existed. Note, though, that there could be some crossover. I really like the idea of a leech infusion that heals you while doing non-poison nature damage to an opponent!

[bricks]

Hmm... Could work. What I fear is that it requires buffing all inscriptions, thereby making them more potent for enemies. An unexpected Frozen Spear is nasty, so long as they don't end up hitting themselves. Heal/regen/shielding are all pretty powerful, too, especially when you consider that enemy inscriptions probably scale with level better than the player's.

I prefer the idea of making attack runes more debuff/recovery/buff/defense oriented. I proposed some a while back that were both offensively useful and had other practical effects (dispel magic, drain life, raise a temporary wall). Similar things could be done with existing runes - add daze to Lightning and target loss/confusion to Phase Door, for example. I also thought the idea of runes with variable sizes was very promising, and as the interface becomes more and more graphical, I think that idea gains merit.

[tiger_eye]

I think attack runes are more useful than people give them credit for (although I think the average cooldown could be reduced a turn or two). The fact that they are instant-cast means they are "free" attacks that the player can do every so often. They can be very helpful to melee characters that don't otherwise have ranged attacks. Heh, I've done ~10,000 total damage in a single attack with an Acid Wave rune

Anyway, as to your suggestion, it could work if the idea is developed further, but I don't know why you want to restrict players' choices or limit character builds.

As stated, enforcing variety. Restrictions breed creativity!

More variety for a single character, perhaps, but this would reduce variety between different characters, because they would all use "the best" defensive inscription, the best offensive one, etc.

[Avianpilot]

Anyway, as to your suggestion, it could work if the idea is developed further, but I don't know why you want to restrict players' choices or limit character builds.

I agree. I'm not really in favor of 'balancing the player' rather than balancing the game. I don't see any real issues with the way inscriptions are balanced right now (except 40 point healing infusions and 50 point shield runes are pretty much worthless to characters of all levels), so I don't see why players should be further restricted in their inscription choices.

[eronarn]

but I don't know why you want to restrict players' choices or limit character builds.

Because that's how games work. Races, classes, talent trees, etc. all restrict choices and limit character builds.

More variety for a single character, perhaps, but this would reduce variety between different characters, because they would all use "the best" defensive inscription, the best offensive one, etc.

I don't think you thought this statement through. If something isn't good enough to use now, that means that something else is currently "the best", and that it's already being used.

Also, which utility and offensive runes are best is going to vary across characters a lot more than what defensive runes are best. Everyone wants to stay alive, but not everyone wants to phase door or use movement infusions.

[tiger_eye]

Eronarn, every type of inscription is good enough to use now. If some aren't, then they should be looked at. Several have already been addressed and buffed.

The variety comes in that different characters have different needs (or players have a desired playing style), so that the best combination of inscriptions takes the form of having different combinations of different types. If you force a slot to be either offensive, defensive, or utility, then you restrict the possible combinations of inscriptions, and what was formerly the best (or desired) combination for a given character isn't possible anymore. If I recall correctly, you typically always play on Insane difficulty, right eronarn? It is not surprising to me that your characters all follow a similar inscription pattern that generally gives the best chance of survival on Insane. The game is designed around Normal difficulty, not Insane. Heh, I've been thinking about creating a character that uses five attack runes or infusions; why should I not be able to do so?

I'm not outright dismissing your idea, nor am I calling you an idiot (although I may call you insane ). It may have some merit, but I think more brainstorming/development is needed.

[eronarn]

Well, that is why I posted this.

This proposal would restrict the number of possible rune combinations, but the vast majority of those combinations go unused currently. On the other hand, it would hit the currently popular combinations pretty hard. New popular combinations would show up, but there's no reason to expect them to be more popular than the status quo.

[Frumple]

... we'd need more inscriptions. We'd also need offensive inscriptions that weren't basically superfluous -- most classes don't need more firepower, as they've got plenty. We'd also need to go about buffing classes who lean on inscriptions for defense and utility, since they'd be losing out. Undead in particular would need something extra. Certain current inscriptions would have to be made into not-shit (Read: uncontrolled PD runes, possibly heal infusions. All the offensive ones, but especially insidious poison -- a lot of enemies are partially or fully immune to poison -- heroism, invisibility. The invis rune particularly is hilariously useless now, in most situations.).

The vast majority of inscription combinations go unused because most classes have no use for them. The offensive ones are particularly hit by this, as very few classes actually need the extra firepower to drop something. Certain other infusions (Heroism, invis) just aren't useful except in niche cases. Considering changing inscriptions eats the worn one, swapping out on the fly or even regularly isn't really an option.

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I'd definitely argue the earlier point about five inscription slots being optimal, though, at least with all classes. It's bloody rare I can spare a single cat point in my builds for an extra inscription slot, much less two. Inscriptions are very nice, but spending half of my possible cat points for what amounts to two (albeit good) talents isn't something I can justify very often. Cornacs get a little more leeway, here, but not having racial talents is a helluva weakness.

Five inscriptions definitely isn't necessary in normal, as well, particularly in adventurer (And remember, the game's default difficulty is normal/adventurer. That's what we need to balance around, first.). I fairly regularly hit the east without buying any extra inscriptions.

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Anyway, I'd say the better way of going about encouraging inscription diversity is making the lesser used ones more attractive, not restricting the player's choices. Suggestions for that are littered all over the idea forum, it's just a matter of either DG or some enterprising player getting around to implementing them.