Helping manage those pesky skeleton mages as a necromancer.

[bricks]

I do think the cone summoning will be an improvement, but I still really don't follow the "no smart AI" logic. We're not talking about giving them college degrees or aspirations. "Smart AI" just means they try to be intelligent about positioning and talent use; it doesn't actually denote anything in game, and for actors with limited skill sets the visible effects are minor, right? Why dance around the issue when there is a simple solution already within reach?

Not to denigrate the tactical AI. Actors with large, holistic skill sets are much more frightening when they seem to know how to harass the player and properly position themselves. I just really dislike the idea of constantly plotting lines between skeleton mages and potential threats to make sure I won't get vaporized.

[Dwarf_Hammer]

Friendly fire is an intentional drawback for minions. Minions are already very powerful. And necromancers are pretty overpowered. Dealing with friendly fire isn't even difficult.

You can teleport your mages around, move away from them, or destroy them. Once you get Probability Travel you'll rarely ever find yourself in danger. I never came close to dying due to friendly fire. I do like yufra's cone summoning idea though.

[yufra]

I do think the cone summoning will be an improvement, but I still really don't follow the "no smart AI" logic. We're not talking about giving them college degrees or aspirations. "Smart AI" just means they try to be intelligent about positioning and talent use; it doesn't actually denote anything in game, and for actors with limited skill sets the visible effects are minor, right? Why dance around the issue when there is a simple solution already within reach?

Let me start with a disclaimer: I am simply relaying my interpretation of DG's opinions on this issue. If you have ever played the game telephone in your childhood you know how bad that can be.

There are two reasons that skeleton mages do not have tactical AI. The first is thematic: the minions are supposed to be dumb. After all, skeleton mage NPCs do the same thing, right? The second reason is power, which Dwarven Hammer referenced. Negating friendly fire by giving them something like channel staff (shoot through friends without hurting them) or by making them smart enough not to injure friends is a direct advantage to the necromancer. I believe that DG is strictly against both of those options, and therefore I am trying to come up with solutions that increase the survivability of the necromancer but not increase his power. The cone summoning was the first step towards this, giving the necromancer some control over where the minions would pop up. The remaining problem is having minions trail you.

Let us assume that friendlyfire and tactical AI are out (DG can always pop in and say they are fine later). What are other ways to fix this?

[Rectifier]

Throw the mages a scooby snack so they don't follow you for a few turns?

[Fela]

Or rather some variant on the rogues' lure ability where you can give all your minions a place to run to?

[Devorius]

How about a sustained talent that silences minions? This would not interfere with them being "dumb," as it would be the Necromancer suppressing their magic. I believe it would mesh with theme, as the Necro is technically the source of their power, so it would would make sense that s/he would be able to cut them off, so-to-speak.

[Moander]

My necromancer recently remembered that there was a vault he did not dare to open the first time he saw it in Trollmire. As he entered he spotted a lone enemy so he created some minions to handle the nuisance. Suddenly he spotted another enemy at the end of the corridor of trees, he took one step towards the enemy snake and promptly died.

It turns out his 4 mages and a archer had lined up behind him and sent one arrow and 4 manathrust into the poor little necromancers back. As far as I can tell there was no way for me to survive that unless I want to teleport away everytime I meet something in a corridor.

Is there someway to remove the archer and the mages from the summoned creatures list or to split the "Create Minions" into three commands, Create Brutes, Create Artillery and Create Mixed force?

[bugmenot]

Isn't that a bug? Sounds like a bug...

If it's not, a skill that makes necromancers immune against their minions attacks would be great. In lvls with long corridors, I practically instantly die the moment I hit the autoexplore button if I have more than 1 skeleton mage around.

I don't think that that'd make necromancers more powerful - it'd just make it less of an annoying micro-managing to run trough a straight corridor. I mean - who wants that? Killing of your minions all the time or sorting them or teleporting around so you can walk in a straight line isn't really that much fun.

IF necromancers are overpowered (not sure yet:P), something that feels as annoying / buggy as this isn't the right way to compensate. Yes, stupidity is fine, but in my opinion it should be limited to them being likely to die themselves or kill each others, maybe be useless some of the time for other reasons... get stuck, run off, stand in the way of each others, attack a tree for looking at them funny, walk in circles for a few years, whatever. Something that can require such "intense care" while (for those who choose to move around in such a "careful way") not really making it more "challenging" to play a necromancer just isn't it.

Or maybe... minions with ranged attacks could just stay behind? Like: "master is in attack range, no need to get closer :3". That's pretty stupid, makes the mobs likely to die on longer journeys + "weaker" (they won't be in attack range as early most of the time unless freshly summoned) and it'd also protect the necromancer ( time to get out of the way if you encounter a mob ). Still the old backstabbing problems with stealthy mobs, but that's what enhanced senses are for.

[Moander]

Unfortunately necromancers are pretty overpowered. Right now I would settle for the removal of the mages from the summoned list. I can handle a arrow in the back (thank you blurred mortality) but I can't handles several manathrusts.

Does anyone know if addons or modules can override the summoned critters list?

[Dwarf_Hammer]

A necromancer doesn't need to be in the LOS of most bosses to win, so they're practically invincible for a large part of the game. Probability Travel along with Shadow Tunnel and Arcane Eye allows you to sit comfortably behind a wall (or in a closed room) and watch your minions do most of the work.

Mages are mostly a problem in the early game and archers rarely ever hit you. I think armored skeleton warriors (asw) are more dangerous than either ranged minions. At high levels, a asw gets an acid rune and almost always hit you and your other minions with it.

[yufra]

Hey moander. I feel your pain, and it was after playing necromancer that I created the first patch that made create minions a targetable cone. I will be the first to admit that they are broken, but the sort of strict upgrade where mages simply avoid shooting through the player has been categorically ruled out by DG (last time we chatted about this at least). We need to come up with sidegrades.

I believe the archer hitting you is actually your fault, though... the arrow would already have been in the air and destined to travel through the spot that you stepped in to. At least I am 80% sure on that count. There is no way to avoid that except to be behind your archers.

The two solutions that I keep coming back to are being able to either tell your minions to "go over here", or easily destroy all your minions.

In regards to an addon to remove mages from the summoned critters list, sure I'll whip that together and hand it over to Mr. Addon (Goblinz).

[bugmenot]

Why not...:
- Make leash length of all minion equal to 1/2 their biggest attack range (or more)
- Add a (passive/sustained?) skill that reflects [50-90%] of the dmg back to the minion that hit you or maybe just kills them instantly if they do ("masters wrath" :3)
- Or maybe a 50% (?) chance that minions that don't have a direct line of sight to an enemy do walk instead of attack (or do nothing).

... or something like that?

[yufra]

Why not...:
- Make leash length of all minion equal to 1/2 their biggest attack range (or more)
- Add a (passive/sustained?) skill that reflects [50-90%] of the dmg back to the minion that hit you or maybe just kills them instantly if they do ("masters wrath" :3)
- Or maybe a 50% (?) chance that minions that don't have a direct line of sight to an enemy do walk instead of attack (or do nothing).

... or something like that?

Your second option is brilliant! I think that is exactly the sort of thing we could incorporate into the game that balances necromancers better and even fits thematically. I'll run it past DG next time I chat with him, but kudos.

[Dekar]

I played a Ghoul Summoner Necro ( with a little spell support as possible but with Rigor Mortis as it buffs minion damage ) until I died in Dreadfell and never really cared about Mages hitting me, hardly even noticing it.

Might be a problem for lower life races though.