Helping manage those pesky skeleton mages as a necromancer.

[yufra]

There have been a few complaints about necromancers pets being dumb, particularly the skeleton mages. I believe that DG desires the minions to be dumb, so I am suggesting a different approach. There are two cases where skeleton mages are likely to hit the summoner. First, right after summoning the skeleton mage has a chance to appear on the opposite side of the summoner relative to the enemy. I propose we fix this problem by changing Create Minions to a targetable cone. The minions will appear randomly within this cone, so you can aim the summons towards the enemy. This could still be a problem if you are surrounded, but I think that is an acceptable problem.

The second problem is when you are towing your minion entourage around the dungeon and encounter new enemies. The minions follow you, so you will definitely be between the minions and the enemy during exploration. To deal with this I suggest adding an order to the minions (similar to special menu/orders that appear for the escorts). The minions are dumb, so this won't be any of the fancy leashing that you see with the summoner, but a simple "die" command that kills a single minion should do the trick. This allows you to weed out the minions you don't want to travel around with, in this case the mages.

Thoughts?

[bricks]

Eh, I think minions just should avoid hitting their summoners. If necromancers were designed with the danger of minion attacks in mind, it would be OK, but that isn't the case.

[yufra]

Eh, I think minions just should avoid hitting their summoners. If necromancers were designed with the danger of minion attacks in mind, it would be OK, but that isn't the case.

Yes, other have raised this point. I don't think that is likely to happen, so I proposed a different solution for some feedback.

[Final Master]

I have yet to unlock necromancers specifically to play, but I do have a decent grasp of what is happening.

DG has said that the minions are meant to be dumb. Now, dumb can mean different things in t4.
1) No talents
2) 'dumbai'
3) Uncontrollable

Now, obviously, they have talents, and, as far as I am aware, they also have the dumbai flag. I haven't heard if you can issue commands [controllable] to them or not [uncontrollable]. The big thing that makes summoners summons not have too much of an issue is that you can target where they are summoned to. Then again, they are also brute force, not masses. So, I would actually think some form of targetting, such as a cone as yufra suggested, would actually be pretty good.

I would also say that as necromancers were designed with the backlash of minions in mind [most likely, I mean, come on guys, necros have been getting slowly developed for over a year] that they can handle it to an extent. Also, keep in mind, necromancers aren't just summoners, there are other things you can do.

If a cone were used, I'd be interested into what size of cone. Again, I haven't actually played a necromancer yet, but a range 4 cone is probably pretty decent.

[yufra]

Thanks FM for the concise explanation of the situation. Currently minions have talents, use the dumb AI, and are uncontrollable. I briefly mentioned adding control (specifically a move to here command) to DG, but it didn't sound like he was interested. Thus the brainstorming.

I have attached a patch for a range 5 cone here. I playtested it a bit and liked it, and if anyone else is feeling adventurous let me know how it plays for you. Cheers!

[bricks]

I'd give it a shot if the new compressed module files weren't giving me a headache. Hypothetically a cone sounds very usable. The only two issues I can think of is situations where odd terrain would make cone summoning very random (Trollmire-style maps come to mind), and the ongoing issue of trailing a pile of undead behind you while you run through the dungeon. I can't fairly assess those without giving it a try, though. Neromancer mobs will be much scarier with this change, which could be a serious issue. They're already much more frightening than Summoners.

Quick thought: cone radius should perhaps vary directly with the Necrotic Aura radius.

[yufra]

Thanks for the continued feedback!

I'd give it a shot if the new compressed module files weren't giving me a headache.

Yah, that has complicated things. I believe DG is still working on a "patch" feature that should make these things easier in the future.

Hypothetically a cone sounds very usable. The only two issues I can think of is situations where odd terrain would make cone summoning very random (Trollmire-style maps come to mind)... Quick thought: cone radius should perhaps vary directly with the Necrotic Aura radius.

I am not entirely sure I know what you mean. Are you saying that places with wide open spaces will have more randomness to the exact location of the minions relative to a one tile wide hallway? This is definitely true, although if I implement your suggestion where the cone radius (fixed angle) is extended with Necrotic Aura then wide open spaces would allow you to summon more minions than in a hallway. For example, if your Aura has a radius of 2 then you could only summon 2 minions at a time in a one tile wide hallway... sure you know exactly where they will be but there is a drawback. I think that is ok, but am open to more arguments for/against.

...and the ongoing issue of trailing a pile of undead behind you while you run through the dungeon. I can't fairly assess those without giving it a try, though. Neromancer mobs will be much scarier with this change, which could be a serious issue. They're already much more frightening than Summoners.

Again I am not entirely sure what you mean here. Summoners can already pinpoint their summons (within a certain range). Necromancers NPCs would get a bit of an advantage in that their minions will be on average closer to the player right after summoning, but a smart player could actually use this to their advantage by immediately phase dooring/etc to the exposed opposite side of the necromancer. Am I missing something?

[cttw]

I'm a Tome noob but I think I noticed that when your necromancer raised skellies is that if they lose sight of you, they stop following you. Maybe they should have some sort of magical tracking of its necromancer? The problem being that they lag behind a bit, then lose track of you, then they die outside necrotic aura range. When they die they take their "soul", as you need to collect dead things to raise them. Having few souls is sometimes a problem with necromancer, and this gets annoying, because in some maps it is really difficult to move in such a way that no raised skellies lose sight of you.

[bricks]

Yeah, Yufra, I could have been a little more clear. My point with Necro mobs is that they get to summon 4+ undead instantly, whereas Summoners get one summon a turn. The volume is generally scarier than the actual summon, since it reduces your mobility, and on top of that, Necros actually have spells they can cast after doing the whole summoning bit. More of a comment on balance of mobs than on this change meant for the player, which should definitely be the priority.

I brought up Trollmire-style maps because they have the tendency to be a pain to navigate with allies, especially when they get ahead of you (the escorts in Trollmire come to mind). The cone could potentially make summoning a little weird (unless symmetric line-of-sight is in? I know it's planned).

[yufra]

Thanks cctw and bricks. First, I don't think DG will want the minions to track you better since, again, the minions are intended to be dumb. This is part of the balance which bricks mentions, where a necromancer can QUICKLY get out a bunch of summons. I have yet to face necromancer mobs with the cone summoning, so I cannot comment on it yet. I need to slow down my gameplay enough to actually survive to the mid-levels... *sigh*

[Gargan]

I'll just add my opinion to this soup. And it is that there is a problem with the way skeleton mages in particular behave. Minions being dumb is all fine and cool, not tracking is no problem. You can always raise more to replace those left behind. But skeleton mages shooting their arcane beams through other minions and their Master is a major liability.

For summoner the situation is entirely different, and I see no problem there. Knowing where to place your Hydra / Fire Drake so that it won't breathe on you is a good part of the gameplay for the class. But that's because summoner can decide where to summon them and they don't persist for long. Skeleton mages trail behind you as you move unless you specifically get rid of them after every creation, and their beam has long range so they can hit a faraway target through your entire army and yourself.

I am now only playing my first necromancer character but I can already see how when he dies it will be to skeleton mage friendly fire, and it comes across to me more of a frustration and undue micromanagement rather than a fun challenge. My suggestion is to prevent them from casting the beam if it would hit friendlies.

[Dwarf_Hammer]

Necromancers are already very easy, so making minions smarter wouldn't be a good idea. Most of these problems are just minor annoyances. There are plenty of ways to deal with friendly fire. And souls are basically an infinite resource, so it doesn't matter much if your minions are too dumb to live.

My suggestion is to fix their magical "telepathy", so they don't chase after monsters they've never seen before. Or always know where a teleporting enemy is located. And maybe remove their ability to use runes, since they can't use them well.

[yufra]

I am now only playing my first necromancer character but I can already see how when he dies it will be to skeleton mage friendly fire, and it comes across to me more of a frustration and undue micromanagement rather than a fun challenge. My suggestion is to prevent them from casting the beam if it would hit friendlies.

I understand your frustration, and I think the specific example of having mages trail you still needs to be resolved. Unfortunately I don't think your suggestion to increase their AI will get much traction. Could you focus on that specific issue (trailing mages) and come up with a different solution? I had suggested allowing the necromancer to destroy specific minions, but that will require micromanagement. What about a separate talent (instant use, no cooldown) that can switch all of your minions from passive to aggressive? In passive mode they just follow you about, and in aggressive mode they work as now?

[Rectifier]

I haven't played a necromancer, but could the skeleton mages just be changed to have the "channel staff" talent only to remove friendly fire issues?

[Gargan]

I like your suggestion about the ability to make minions nonaggressive, yufra. That would work very well.

Also, allowing to create less than the maximum number of minions you can with one cast of Create Minions would improve things since then you wouldn't be flooding the place with potential cadre of mages. It could ask how many you want to create when cast.