Nerf Transmogrification

[martinuzz]

I cannot agree with the OP. I still carry around purple stuff, and randarts, to sell to shops, because of the gold penalty for transmogrification.
With dwarves even more so.

[tiger_eye]

There was a fuss kicked up when DarkGod made it so that shops only buy gems and artifacts. Personally I thought it was great, and it's a shame he's changed it back. Let junk be junk without having to turn everything into gold!

Indeed. See here (it's worth reading):

http://forums.te4.org//viewtopic.php?f=39&t=24440

To summarize: some people like selling; some people don't. It's a matter of preference, and I for one don't think selling and transmogrifying everything is particularly fun. The proponents for allowing selling items had a reasonable argument though: it's optional. If you don't want to sell items, then you don't have to, because it's not like you're missing out on much. Well, at least you weren't missing out on much back then. Unfortunately, there is now a strong incentive for all players to sell or transmogrify everything: fortress energy and "special" artifacts for a "special" price. While it's nice to have more uses for gold, I don't like being encouraged to accumulate gold with the current system.

I really think the thread I linked should be revisited, the points made reconsidered, and the economic system revised. Perhaps a nice compromise would be to allow selling gems and artifacts, as was previously done.

I actually think an interesting mechanic if we're keeping item decay would be having decayed stuff show up in nearby shops, btw, or adventurer parties.

Interesting idea. If players can't sell normal items, though, then other adventurers shouldn't either. Perhaps this could only apply to artifacts that the player missed (and only updated when the stores restock, of course)?

[Zonk]

Unfortunately, there is now a strong incentive for all players to sell or transmogrify everything: fortress energy and "special" artifacts for a "special" price. While it's nice to have more uses for gold, I don't like being encouraged to accumulate gold with the current system.

I really think the thread I linked should be revisited, the points made reconsidered, and the economic system revised. Perhaps a nice compromise would be to allow selling gems and artifacts, as was previously done.

I assume you'd want them to be sellable at even higher prices than now(and for npcs to drop far more gold), because otherwise, we're going to have FAR less gold than now, so paying the "special"price is going to be far harder, if not outright impossible.

Otherwise, it sounds like you're just making people poorer and thus LESS able to get these things because you don't like the incentive of becoming wealthier just to get them.
(I may have misunderstood you, sorry if that is the case).

Interesting idea. If players can't sell normal items, though, then other adventurers shouldn't either.

I wasn't thinking of adventurers selling them, but of the shops having some sort of dungeon-cleaning service(ok, silly ). Adventurer parties would USE them. Though that also feels weird unless adventurer parties start showing up in dungeons. And if an adventurer party with this equipment is defeated by patrols, is the equipment lost forever? or does the equipment only spawn when you start the fight? Yeah, I think my idea has a few problems, though it sounded ok...

Perhaps this could only apply to artifacts that the player missed (and only updated when the stores restock, of course)?

I still think a nice way to handle 'forgetting'artifacts on a level would be something like level feelings from your Orb of Scrying/Memories/The Way.

[Aquillion]

On the whole issue of shops - I'd like to bring up that people who don't like buying and selling are free to play like that now, while if things were changed again...the reverse would not be true. People who like shopping would be penalized. I think that would be bad, unless there were a lot of other significant changes to provide a better chance of getting useful equipment.

The problem is that if you make it so players can benefit from buying and selling (as you can now), you're encouraging players to play that way, and making it so they gimp themselves by not doing it.

Basically: You could say the same "well, it's optional!" thing about grinding. But it isn't really optional, not if you reward it. You have to balance the game around it, and that means that going without it becomes a challenge. The game ends up getting balanced around buying and selling (especially when it comes to runes -- it'd be very hard for an undead to get good shield runes reliably without buying or selling.)

If you want buying and selling to genuinely be optional, there has to be a trade-off so you're not giving anything up by not doing it -- eg. a mercantile skill that you have to invest generic points in before you're allowed to buy from shops at all; one point necessary to buy, two points necessary to sell, additional points expanding the range of what you can buy or sell. If buying and selling is going to genuinely be optional, there needs to be some advantage to never entering a shop and never selling anything for gold.

I don't seriously think that that's the way to go; I think it would be better to either try and make buying and selling less boring, or remove them completely. You can't have something be totally "optional" in the way you mean it -- not when it offers potential benefits that need to be balanced into the game.



But the absolute worst thing to do, IMHO, would be to do what the OP suggested. The transmogrification chest is the only thing that makes dealing with gold less than totally mind-numbingly boring. It should be buffed, not nerfed; carrying things back to shops adds absolutely nothing to the game, and I reiterate that I'd prefer that the player (somehow) start with the chest and that the ability to sell objects to shops be completely removed.

At the very least (barring some larger overhaul like people are discussing above), I'd like the chest to give full gold price. Again: Carrying things back to shops is not a choice. It involves no trade-off. It's pure boring grinding with no gameplay elements to it whatsoever. There is no reason not to do it except for how painfully, uninterestingly boring it is. This much is not "subjective" -- I can see people enjoying buying from shops, but I cannot see any benefit to carrying stuff to them, since you are just mindlessly entering commands with no gameplay choices whatsoever.

That, at least, should be removed as a gameplay element complete. Make the shop and the chest give the exact same amount of gold in all cases. Either nerf shop sale prices or buff the chest's gold return, I don't care which, but please make them the same (and lift the chest's gold cap, or impose the same cap on shops.)

We went through this exact thing with identification, didn't we? First you had to lug everything boringly back to the identification shop to identify them. Then you eventually got the orb for common stuff but still had to lug artifacts back. Then people finally accepted that lugging stuff back to town added nothing to the game, and you'd start with the orb instead.

Trips back to town mattered when monsters respawned. Monsters don't respawn now, so a trip back to town means nothing but wasted real-life time and extra keypresses, without any gameplay impact. It's grinding, plain and simple, and ToME shouldn't reward grinding.

[Zonk]

The problem is that if you make it so players can benefit from buying and selling (as you can now), you're encouraging players to play that way, and making it so they gimp themselves by not doing it.

Basically: You could say the same "well, it's optional!" thing about grinding. But it isn't really optional, not if you reward it.
You have to balance the game around it, and that means that going without it becomes a challenge. The game ends up getting balanced around buying and selling (especially when it comes to runes -- it'd be very hard for an undead to get good shield runes reliably without buying or selling.)

I really, really disagree with the 'if something offers a benefit for no tradeoff, it can't really be optional'mentality.
There definetely are people who enjoy not bothering to sell stuff or being 'underlevelled'.
People do all kind of game challenges, after all. As for balance - are you saying that the game is significantly harder for people who decide not to bother with gold right now?
I'm assuming that for those who'd want to play without using them that is EXACTLY the point.

Just remove shops(assuming you don't introduce changes to compensate), and this 'challenge' becomes the default, and people who like selling to shops are left with...not much.
*I*do agree that earning gold/items could be made less annoying. But again, even if the game encourages, it still leaves choice, which is a very important. So just flat-out not allowing selling 'just because' would suck.

You can't have something be totally "optional" in the way you mean it -- not when it offers potential benefits that need to be balanced into the game.

It's only mandatory if you MUST have every possible benefit.
I think I'm actually the kind of player who plays like that - I HATE losing an escort quest(especially when it happens because of their stupidty), for example, and try to do ALL zones for the chance of getting something nice. Yet DarkGod keeps saying that they're optional...I do however understand not everyone is like me. And that's great! As long as we have choice.

But the absolute worst thing to do, IMHO, would be to do what the OP suggested. The transmogrification chest is the only thing that makes dealing with gold less than totally mind-numbingly boring. It should be buffed, not nerfed; carrying things back to shops adds absolutely nothing to the game, and I reiterate that I'd prefer that the player (somehow) start with the chest and that the ability to sell objects to shops be completely removed.

Well I definetely agree with this. The pre-chest part of the game where I have to travel back to towns for selling is a bit annoying. Starting with it would be nice. And I feel that having it give the same gold as selling to shops is a must, really. I'm quite disappointed to realize it works like that
I'd also like if you could set some kind of 'autotransmog'option - autotransmog items below a certain material tier/gold value when walking over them. Autotransmog all items of a certain type(like, if I'm not a staff using type, I'd just want to transmog all of them).
Make this take no turns, like autopickup.

Again: Carrying things back to shops is not a choice. It involves no trade-off.

Sure it does. Your time/annoyance...

It's pure boring grinding with no gameplay elements to it whatsoever. There is no reason not to do it except for how painfully, uninterestingly boring it is.

...which is a bad, bad cost. We agree on that.

We went through this exact thing with identification, didn't we? First you had to lug everything boringly back to the identification shop to identify them. Then you eventually got the orb for common stuff but still had to lug artifacts back. Then people finally accepted that lugging stuff back to town added nothing to the game, and you'd start with the orb instead.

And sometimes I wish we just had everything identified by default, without needing a talent/item to use for arts. I don't really feel excitement at having to use the talent/orbs to identify special drops. I guess a lot of other people do?.
Oh, and we get to read the un-ided name of some artifacts, too. Which...I feel is a very minor gain.

[Aquillion]

I really, really disagree with the 'if something offers a benefit for no tradeoff, it can't really be optional'mentality.
There definetely are people who enjoy not bothering to sell stuff or being 'underlevelled'.
People do all kind of game challenges, after all. As for balance - are you saying that the game is significantly harder for people who decide not to bother with gold right now?
I'm assuming that for those who'd want to play without using them that is EXACTLY the point.

That assumption is wrong. That's the point. Many people loathe the gold system simply because it isn't fun. They don't want additional challenges; they want the game to be exactly as difficult as it currently is if you fiddle with gold, but without the out-of-character irritation of wasting time with it.

Just remove shops(assuming you don't introduce changes to compensate), and this 'challenge' becomes the default, and people who like selling to shops are left with...not much.
*I*do agree that earning gold/items could be made less annoying. But again, even if the game encourages, it still leaves choice, which is a very important. So just flat-out not allowing selling 'just because' would suck.

It's not "just because", it's because they're not fun. The game shouldn't reward grindy behavior -- it shouldn't reward behavior that isn't fun.

This exact argument could be repeated for monster respawning. Why not leave monster respawning in so people who want to grind, can? If you don't want to grind, nobody is forcing you!

But the nature of the game -- the baseline it's balanced around -- is defined by the things it rewards. Therefore, the "default" core game should be fun, and should never reward boring, irritating, or unfun behaviors, such as grinding XP or gold.

If shops were an optional challenge -- if the game became harder if you wanted to use shops, rather than easier -- it would be fine. This is what was done with grinding, ultimately -- it was pushed into adventurer encounters and farportal levels that were actually more difficult than going without it, so that, when played in its "baseline" form, the game never encouraged or rewarded grinding, and never ended up being balanced around grinding.

It puts players in a position between "do something that I hate doing" and "have the game be harder." That's bad design, because it's going to result in some players doing things they hate doing. An optional challenge is a good thing; but the player should never, ever be encouraged to do 'optional challenges' that they don't want by making the game less fun if you don't take the challenge.

Suppose equipment management was painfully unfun. Would you suggest "well, just play without equipment, it'll be a challenge?" No, that's ridiculous, because a basic part of the game like equipment management needs to be fun if it's going to be present -- players could just play naked characters all the time, but the default way of playing ought to be fun.

Similarly, if shops are going to be in the game, they need to be designed to work in a more fun fashion. If they can't be, they need to be removed or redesigned so players are not mechanically encouraged to use them.

[Frumple]

... I kinda' like shops as is. Other than vacuuming everything with the chest (more for farportal energy than actual gold, and because I hate leaving junk to rot on the dungeon floor even moreso), I don't really go out of my way much to get my fun from them (loot that doesn't try to kill me first!). They fill missing kit, upgrade my utility junk (including waterbreathing, active kit, inscriptions, etc.), and occasionally give me (random) artifacts. Pretty habitually end up spending 5k+ gold by the end game, without including the lost merchant or limmy junk in that number.

I definitely wouldn't want to see shops ditched entirely -- knowing that not fully exploring a level is even more likely to negatively impact my game (read: Even less sources of kit) sounds distasteful.

But yeah. Getting rid of it (shops, chest, selling, whatever) without something drastic happening to the kit/drop system isn't a good idea -- we've tried it before (selling only gems/artifacts) and it's viciously annoying. It's a bad enough psychological kick to the reproductive organs just leaving greens and crap on the ground before getting a hold of the chest. Without even the chest or shops as a recourse, you end up just kinda' staring despondently at all the stuff you're just leaving laying on the ground, useless, unloved, and unsightly. There's few things quite as sad as that little purple greatmaul [strike]in the window[/strike] left in the dungeon.

That said, I wouldn't mind something like this, specifically the first suggestion (to toot my own horn a bit ). Just ditch shops and kit drops entirely and have your equipment grow as you do. Artifacts could replace base kit, kinda' like overwriting an inscription (possibly add a few extra alternate weapon/kit sets), or shift into a crystal focus/heart type dealie.

Drops, if they were left around at all, would be for utility junk (inscriptions, gems, etc.). Gold, if it wasn't ditched entirely, could be used for various services; unenchanting, one-time upgrades, etc.

[Aquillion]

Yeah, I don't really think I'd want to see shops vanish entirely. At least, the concept of choosing items from a big list is important. It's more gold that I object to; it doesn't work well in its current setup, IMHO. Overhauling prices might help a bit, but fundamentally the current gold + shop model was designed for a more grind-y game.

Suppose there was something like, say -- each boss let you redeem one item of your choice from the stockpiles of a specific town (with each boss or area being associated to a town, too.) Just an example. So you have a guaranteed way of getting items that will almost certainly be useful to you, without a lot of fiddling with prices or anything.

But that doesn't change the "I hate to leave purple stuff just lying there" issue... hmm.

[martinuzz]

But that doesn't change the "I hate to leave purple stuff just lying there" issue... hmm.

Perhaps, make the chest's activation give you two options:
- transmogrify
- send item to fortress storage room

[Zonk]

This exact argument could be repeated for monster respawning. Why not leave monster respawning in so people who want to grind, can? If you don't want to grind, nobody is forcing you!

It could be. And my opinion would be that yes, leaving monster respawning would have been nice(especially since the alchemist quest was added...but we're getting sidetracked).

Here's an example of something that's not exactly 'fun' or exciting but gives you benefits, too - doing all tier 1 zones. The zones aren't challenging at all, so I mostly do it for the chance of a decent artifact from the boss(by the point I'm doing the last two tier 1 zones, the experience is negligible). I'm curious - would you consider it grinding? I don't think disallowing doing more than X tier 1 zones would be a good suggestion, though.

But the nature of the game -- the baseline it's balanced around -- is defined by the things it rewards. Therefore, the "default" core game should be fun, and should never reward boring, irritating, or unfun behaviors, such as grinding XP or gold.

Look, I definetely agree there - how could I say 'nah, unfun behaviors are good!'? The thing is, what is irritating, boring, unfun is sometimes VERY subjective.
Going back and forth between zones and towns to sell stuff pre-chest is something which I agree isn't very fun.
And or people who think it's fun - they'd be able to do it even when they have the chest, however having to manage your wealth and go shopping once in a while...I don't see what's so annoying about that. Sure, for some people it is, but I can't see it being a major concern compared to other parts of the game once the chest thing is dealt with.

It puts players in a position between "do something that I hate doing" and "have the game be harder." That's bad design, because it's going to result in some players doing things they hate doing. An optional challenge is a good thing; but the player should never, ever be encouraged to do 'optional challenges' that they don't want by making the game less fun if you don't take the challenge.

But again, different players hate different things, and singling out shopping(again, NOT the whole chest/carrying stuff to town thing) feels out of place to me.

Similarly, if shops are going to be in the game, they need to be designed to work in a more fun fashion. If they can't be, they need to be removed or redesigned so players are not mechanically encouraged to use them.

Suppose there was something like, say -- each boss let you redeem one item of your choice from the stockpiles of a specific town (with each boss or area being associated to a town, too.) Just an example. So you have a guaranteed way of getting items that will almost certainly be useful to you, without a lot of fiddling with prices or anything.

Mechanically, nice idea. Ingame justification for that, though? Just having 'vouchers' feels awkard to me.
However...
One thing I considered myself time ago...let the player exchange artifacts - especially boss specific ones - at towns for other artifacts - or other rewards. I can see that being easy to justify - the local authorities rewarding you for making the area around safer.
Like if you bring Kor's Fall to Derth, people might feel safer because the evil spirit dwelling in the haunted ruins has been defeated. Similarly with Bill's Tree Trunk(as long as it's recognizable as his)
I think this would also work pretty well with 'historical'world artifacts, which could be given to local rulers.
For example, artifacts belonging to powerful mages could be brought to Angolwen, those related to the human/halfling storyline to Last Hope, and ones related to the Spellhunt/Antimagic to Zigur.
This would require some extra work with dialogues, deciding how much each art is worth and to whom(though we could go with a value based on the current price), but I can see it being very satisfying.

If you really wanted something like 'vouchers'...I can think of a way to use that that feels more satisfying, narratively, and ties in with the idea above. Defeating bosses(and perhaps some uniques) gets you 'prestige'/reputation with towns.
This is basically a currency that can be exchanged for high quality stuff. Not necessarily arts, and depends on the town. Derth wouldn't have much. Basically, the local rulers/city council hear of your exploits and decide to supply you with some stuff so you can keep doing heroic things.
Would have to decide how each zone ties to each town, however. The tier 1 zones are trivial.
For the higher tier zones...could give a bit of prestige with every town, as the news eventually spreads to most of the world? For example, you'd think that the person who defeated Rantha and then the Master could become very well known and respected around, and authorities would have quite an interest in being on good terms with them(so give them cool stuff, equipment).

I also think it would work VERY well for Yeeks when they eventually get their town. For some reason, I'd see yeeks using gold/money as...weird. And I really like the idea of the town council rewarding your efforts/equipping you for missions.
This is also very appropriate for the Dwarf town btw, since dwarven adventurers are apparently not too common, the council would want you to be well equipped. And their tier 1 zones are directly connected to the town, so they definetely should reward your efforts in finishing them.



And as for changing shops themselves - I'll say it again, I'd really love if there was less chance of shops having useless stuff, and instead we got the chance to custom order stuff.
A kind of very reduced custom item service where you pick the basic item and it lets you pick from a list of egoes, at proper prices of course. (Yes, this is technically more freedom than the Lost Merchant artifact, but if it picks a single ego randomly, there's a much bigger chance of it not being so good).

[Aquillion]

Mechanically, nice idea. Ingame justification for that, though? Just having 'vouchers' feels awkard to me.

Just say that each town has a small stockpile of adventurer-useful items rather than huge stores.

This makes sense. Think about what magic is in the setting! Does it really make sense for shops to sell huge piles of magical equipment? This is a world where they rip out your tongue for suspecting that you use any magic at all! So, no, it's ridiculous, but we accept it because it's a fantasy game trope. (Similar for non-magical equipment -- items that are good enough to equal magical gear should be similarly unbelievably rare and not generally available at any monetary price.)

Each town would have a vault of treasures, and if you kill something that was threatening them nearby and clear out a nearby dungeon full of dangerous creatures (which means, well, beating the boss, for simplicity's sake), they reward you with something from that vault.

Anyway, I'm not saying I really think it's possible to redo things so radically, just mentioning it as an option.

[omni]

I really like the prestige idea.

It always bothered me when you're out saving peoples lives in zelda, and ____ it, that shield cost 200 rupees. I just saved your life! I'm about to do it again! If I survive! I need that shield!

Nope. 200 rupees.

Sometimes I wonder about those shopkeepers. Maybe their self worth is tied to their income, and they've decided it's not worth going on in life without making more money.

[Frumple]

In T4, it's probably more along the lines of your character being under the radar.

You help out a bit with a few towns, but most of the time someone else (more famous) probably would have come along and done something about it anyway. If not, well, there's a lot of other adventurers out there, and most of those actually come in groups The PC isn't really anyone famous or special. Just a critter out to loot and murder adventure. I'd say the shopkeepers in Maj'Eyal treat you pretty well, considering.

You only save the world once (maybe twice, if you count the nagas), and before it actually happens you're the only one that might have even an inkling that it's about to happen -- most of the time you're just some patsy chasing after a 'maybe powerful' macguffin to save the actual forces of "good" from expending the effort. They've got better things to do. ... I kinda' like it that way, honestly.

There probably should be a few requisition moments, though. Last Hope king when he sends you off, maybe the sunpas a couple times. Post-attack Derth, maybe. The lost merchant actually pays you for the save (eight gold!), so...

I could actually see shop prices going up (and merchants getting snippy with you) as you kill off dungeon bosses. You're killing off their major adventurer attractions, after all~

[Aquillion]

You do save Derth, though. It always struck me as a bit odd that nobody there really seems particularly grateful over that.

EDIT: Oh, you noticed that.

Also, damn, that merchant is a skinflint. Eight gold, woooow. That'll buy me... barely a tenth of the cheapest infusion.

[Frumple]

You can save Derth. If you manage to get over the max level for the encounter before going back into th'town, everything's right as rain. See re: Someone else doing it

That'd be a nice place to stick another dialogue or wreck the town entirely, actually. Preferably th'first. Maybe a 50/50 chance to change the town's faction to either whatever magetown's is or Ziggy 'em. I could see a new shop opening up in that spare building afterwards, hmm, based on which faction they switched to.

E: Oh, and yeah, the town itself seems oddly blasé about the whole thing. Probably a legacy-type effect from the reward for that quest being the rod of recall. Either that or the necromancer lore is actually accurate and the derth citizens aren't quite so flappable as you'd expect, heh.