Lichform

[EternalEpoch]

I've done the lich quest on one of my characters now, and I'm trying to make sure I understand the Lichform ability right before I just kill her to make it work. You need to turn on the sustain ability, then die somehow while it's active, correct? Does this actually use up a life? It's okay if it does, though just curious.

I'm also trying to figure out a couple other parts. One is the life rating aspect of it, as the skill increases. This is extra life per level, rather than extra lives, I'm guessing? Also, it says you lose 4 mana per turn while it's active. Is this just the sustain that you need to have on when you die, or even once you become a lich? I'm just very unsure about a lot of these things.

[bricks]

I'm 99% certain that you don't actually lose a life, and the -4 mana/turn is just while the skill is active. When you die, your "race" is switched to Lich, and you receive all of the bonuses that comes with that permanently.

[Dwarf_Hammer]

It's a sustained ability that requires you to die. Yes, it costs a life. Once you become a lich the talent gets grayed out.

[omni]

I have a hard time swallowing the pill for lichform when I put it into the context of "why didn't I start skeleton to begin with?"

Let's compare Cornac into Lichform vs Skeleton Necromancer.

Cornac into Lich (tranformed at lvl 21 which is the earlier I think you can do it with 5/5 talent points. Working from memory and with little reference)
+1 Category Point.
10 health rating changed to 13, averaging. ~11.2 per level?
+15 spell and mental saves. All resistance caps raised by 15%.
-5 class points.
Intrinsic +20% cold and darkness resist.
Stun immunity at 50% (it's the only undead immunity I think that skeleton doesn't share)

Skeleton.
+5 class points. 12 health rating.
Access to the skeleton generic tree which far better prepares you for life without infusions.

I love the coolness factor of lichform, I really do. But that +15% resistance cap is pretty hard to take advantage of, and with the plethora of generic points necromancers seem to have, I'd rather just invest into the skeleton racial tree. Sure that +1 category point is awfully sweet though, but +5 class points is nice too, since I didn't have to invest in lichform to begin with.

Out of curiosity, what does it do to your previous racial tree? Say, could I Shalore it up and go lich and keep my previous powers?

EDIT: oh yeah, +6 mag Will and Cun for the cornac -> lich. But still. Skeleton racials tree

[bricks]

Yes, it costs a life.

Wait, really? That doesn't seem right. How does that work? You have to have the blood of life/ring of the dead if you play roguelike, or you just lose Eidolon-recovery lives?

[Dwarf_Hammer]

Lichform is basically an extra life while sustained. Dying while it's on still counts as a death. Blood of Life doesn't work when you turn into a lich.

@omni

The Necrosis tree requires a category point to unlock? I think I had Blurred Mortality in the beginning of the game. I remember only spending 3 talent points on lich form, which isn't much of an investment for a cornac.

I spent category points on: hexes, shades, 2 inscription slots, and harmony. Check my sig for my necro winner (Nybbas).

[EternalEpoch]

I went ahead and became a lich. It didn't look like it actually took a life, unless I had one more than I thought I did for some reason, I admittedly hadn't checked for a while. I think it possibly counts as a death, but doesn't use up a life? There's also one more thing I can't quite tell now. I had assumed that you could put points into your Lichform after changing, and that you'd get the bonuses. I'm noticing though that if I take a point out my stats don't change. Did I have to hit level 5 in it before changing? I suppose that's a good last straw on this character if so, probably worth restarting properly on normal now that I have the main unlocks I want.

[omni]

Oh no dwarf_hammer, I was saying that cornac get +1 category point just for being created as cornac. I'm not sure exactly how you saw someone spending a category point somewhere?

I still feel that life without infusions requires certain... preparations, and that skipping lich form and just rolling skeleton from the beginning isn't a bad plan.

I'm still quite curious what happens to your racial tree when you become a lich.

(NVM. Foundya! apparentlly you can keep your racial tree as a lich. That makes a difference in the swingvote perhaps)

-per http://te4.org/characters/5512/tome/e2b ... 25900d6212

[omni]

Ok so I've been dwelling on the thought and I've decided my next project after this paradox mage should certainly be a skeleton necromancer. I think I'll go halfway into the minion spiel though, for a little bit of refreshment. Keep the skeletons, skip the advanced tree, and focus on will o' the whisp. I'm imagining one of the limiting factors for necromancers is mana, which I think a necromancer could certainly benefit from cursed items/ curse of the bloodcaller and stacked leaching items.

Essentially, the plan is to keep base levels of skeleton minions solely for the healing off of them and creating will o the whisps, use vampiric gift and ridiculous amounts of shielding to keep topped off, while stacking leaching to keep mana high in spite of low available pool thanks to the ridiculous number of sustains. I'll probably need/have to invest in the cursed tree to accomplish this. I'll probably only pick up one of the necromancer generic pools, and it's a tossup between divination or conveyance. I'm thinking conveyance, but keen senses certainly looks sweet as a sustain with that crit chance...

Sound feasible?

[bricks]

I think you're probably overbuilding for mana. Assuming you dedicate a rune slot to a good manasurge rune, which you should have room for as a skeleton/lich, I doubt it will be much of a problem. Plus, you can still do serious damage without mana so long as you have minions up (and summoning minions takes a pittance of mana).

But hey, have fun with it.

[magelike]

I think you guys are looking at this spell the wrong way. A quick glance at the code seems to support the following scenario:

1) Start as a non-undead
2) Find the Blood of Life, chug it down
3) Get into a bad situation, die unintentionally
4) Get into a bad situation, activate Lichform, die unintentionally again
5) Complete the game or die again

That sounds like a full extra life to me (total of 3 lives, versus 2 as a skeleton or non-undead with the Blood of Life), which is great on Roguelike difficulty. That's way better than being a skeleton, isn't it?

[omni]

I can see that. Kind of.

It just doesn't seem to feel like a good idea. Of course, I'm jaded because so far my project skeleton has died once already thanks to an archmage with disperse magic nuking my blurred mortality (yay tactical AI. Clever trick. I had to look in the logs to see how he smacked me for 350 damage at level 16, and saw that disperse magic going off and just facepalmed).

Also it seems a little at odds internally with the idea of it's a last ditch "I'm dying" power to activate. The 250 mana sustain, costing -4 mana per turn among other details that just seems to eat away at that idea. Especially since the lichform can be dispelled (archmages and corrupters), and has a non retroactive +life rating bonus. It also suddenly puts you in a situation where -the infusions, they are useless!- I'm also imagining more than one person out there could see themselves whoopsidaisying losing that last little bit of mana to the -4 per turn, and watching all their sustains drop, and being dropped out of lich form just prior to death. Not to mention disperse magic, corrupted negation, corrosive worm, etc, at just the wrong moment.

Cruising around prepared to die with these 5 class points just tucked away useless until you're prepared to die feels a bit unfun too.

Even then I feel that a Skeleton Necromancers far better prepared to just not die to begin with, and prepared from the get go for a life without infusions, trumping the "I'm a Lich!" Necromancer.

To say why: we're talking about walking around with 5 class points tucked into a piggy bank hoping to never use them, and when you do use them, sure +6 mag cun will is nice, +15% to all resist caps is very very sweet IF you can even get your numbers up there, but... I doubt you'd trade on any character, at pretty much any point in time, infusions for that bonus. Making that trade at the very last second for an extra life feels more like being backed into a corner than making a concious choice for awesome lichform power.

Or to rephrase my long winded opinionated point- without the awesome undead racial trees, you're probably becoming a weaker character becoming a Lich. This is a roguelike, (even on adventure mode) I'd rather have a power and powers available to prevent dying to begin with, rather than an extra life that weakens my character overall.

Still looks like a point sink to me, which doesn't feel like a good thing to spend 5 class points going into. So IF you're going to be a lich, it should be used reactively, to death and is risky business in those last moments. You're survivability as a character is questionably weaker afterwards too. It may be worth considering never becoming a lich altogether- especially if 5 class points could have helped you survive whatever situation if they were somewhere else instead of lichform.

I'd still think a skeleton necromancer would trump a lich necromancer most days of the week. Just better prepped for the lack of infusions. But this is only my opinion. I'll continue on with my plans of being a "Lich" Skeleton from the start rather than Cornac into Lich Necromancer just because one seems stronger in my eyes than the other, and hanging onto lich form hoping to never use it seems not fun.

TLDR;

To make it a simple point. Think back to your past characters. Which ones would you trade 5 class points AND infusions for +6 will mag cun, +15% resist caps, +20% cold and dark resist, and an extra life? I'd only make that choice right before the high peaks, if at all, or right before I'm certain to die. I'd have to be backed into a corner BEFORE I made that choice, it feels unintuitive to make that trade well in advance. My philosophy on roguelikes is invest in what keeps you alive, not a one shot power that undeads you and arguably makes you weaker for it. Better to be prepped for life without infusions from the get go.

[Dwarf_Hammer]

Why do you keep on saying Lichform a 5 point investment? You get a free point for unlocking it and you don't need to put 4 more points into it, as shown with my necromancer winner.

Yeah, a skeleton necromancer is better than a (former cornac) lich necromancer. It doesn't matter much for minion necros, since they rarely take any damage in fights. A shaloren (which doesn't make any sense lore-wise, since they're already immortal) lich would probably be good. Timeless with Providence would be nice for a 'blaster' necro.

[omni]

Ahh gotcha. You mean to say that you get the first classpoint in it free for finishing the necromancer beyond life quest, therefore it's a 4 point investment to get the real benefits of being a lich?

Regardless, yes I can see that you don't -have- to invest in it. Sure, you can win with or without becoming a Lich, or even just hanging onto 4 classpoints and never spending them. You could win without even holding a weapon or perhaps playing a naked character. (Well, I can't )

I guess I'm arguing that it's a point sink, in the interest of power gaming you probably ought not become a lich, or just started skeleton to begin with, and in a round-a-bout way saying for a Tier 4 ability, and the eventual "goal" of every necromancer, it may be behind on its power curve. I think I've been vocal enough about my opinion though

[bricks]

I think it's very hard to diminish the value of a free life. I do think the mana drain bit is too punishing, as is the ability to dispel it (don't get me started on dispels, though. >:(). I'd rather it have an insane sustain cost, to the point where only the most fearful of players would constantly keep it on. Bone Shield works similarly (high sustain cost, not worth using constantly unless you have tremendous amounts of Vim to waste, better as a last resort/"oh shit" skill).