Alchemist quest changes

[Grey]

I don't like the alchemist quests at the moment. They encourage the only form of scumming in the game (adventurer parties for ingredients) and they involve a lot of meta-gaming over when to get which quests. This is a game about dungeon crawling and combat, not grindy side-quests. I know Sus put a lot of effort into the quests, so it seems a shame to remove them. Instead I propose the following changes:

-One ingredient per potion only
-Each ingredient is dropped by a boss, and only by that boss (none from adventurer parties)
-Ingredients are dropped regardless of whether you get the quest or not

This means we'd have to choose a few bosses and appropriate ingredients to use (some like troll intestine can obviously be recycled). They should all be western bosses. We don't need a different ingredient for each potion - just a sufficient pool to cover the minimum number that can be generated (since ingredients are randomly assigned). The gameplay difference is that these are no longer really sidequests - they are picked up as you progress naturally.

Some further, more radical proposals:

-You only choose one alchemist to help out. Once you've handed in one ingredient the others won't deal with you. No meta-gaming between them - make your choice and stick to it.
-The final item requires another ingredient, which will be from an eastern boss (so the reward is restricted to late game).

To support this system we'd have to look a little carefully to ensure balance between the rewards, so that we don't end up with one alchemist being the default choice for most players. I think some of the final rewards are a bit naff myself. Ideally each reward should be something that can permanently make an interesting change to your character (so no disposable potion of invulnerability).

As a further aid to the whole quest system all town zones should have a set level, not a level range as they currently do. Derth level 5, Last Hope level 20, Angolwen 30, etc. If there's a problem with shops stocking items that are too nice then up the prices to push them out of the reach of early game. Or come up with a shop system that's independent of zone levels. We need to stop the current activity of players deliberately avoiding a town until higher levels so nicer stuff appears in the shops.

[Grey]

Ingredient ideas, split into tiers (first potion uses tier 1, second tier 2, etc):

Tier 1 - troll intestine (Prox), bear claw (Norgos), mage's skull (Kor'Pul), wolf fang (cursed woods place)

Tier 2 - animated bark (Wrathroot), minotaur horn (Maze), sandworm tail (the Queen), tentacle (weirdling beast)

Tier 3 - vampire blood (The Master), mummified bone (mummy lord), ice wyrm scale (Daikara), corrupted blood (Grand Corruptor - though he would have to stop being immune after anti-anti-magic)

Tier 4 - naga tongue (Slasul), female orc heart (orc greatmother), shadow heart (doomed Shade), spider's poison (Ungole)

[Gliktch]

If you're worried about one alchemist being over-used due to this change, why not randomize which alchys get which potions? Perhaps maintaining one of the three as static (for thematic purposes; eg of course the deaf guy should be the go-to for Explosions )

If you were to do it this way, maybe it could even be expanded to four potions each (since chances are there'll be 1-2 that won't be much use to your character, like physcrit for a Mage or that sorta thing). You wouldn't actually need to add in new potions, just allow four of them to get duplicated (across two different alchemists) when the potion assignments are generated (and it makes sense that some of them may be working on similar potions, after all)

Just brainstorming here

[Tom]

Boooh!

I love those quests as they are right now.
I love this middle game side kick.
I think it is GREAT fun as it is both DANGEROUS (capital letters) and rewarding.

As I suggested, boost up the adventurers a bit more according to EQ.
I think more players should try the encounters.

[Grey]

Yeah, that's a valid idea, though it can end up with one alchemist having all the best rewards. I think the potion rewards available are actually quite balanced. It's more the final rewards that aren't that appealing to many characters. It would be nice if they had more character defining effects, and be a way of customising your character further in the game.

[Zonk]

Ingredient ideas, split into tiers (first potion uses tier 1, second tier 2, etc):

I definetely agree with this and had considered suggesting it myself.

I don't like randomizing the potions per alchemist each playthrough, especially in combination with only letting you help one(makes things more random/annoying for the player in my opinion. Yes, I know it's an OPTIONAL quest but still..)

On the whole 'final rewards' not being so good - what if the emerald reward had a small on carry bonus, too? For people who, like me, aren't fan of keeping an item around for A LOT of time until you find the perfect equipment piece to imbue in.
(It doesn't have to be big, either. Could be, like, 1/3 or even 1/4 of the bonuses provided by imbuing/wielded. Though the wielding bonuses would have to be reduced then, as I think wearing STILL counts as carrying so...)

[Grey]

The lifebinding emerald is possibly the best one already, I'd say.

[eronarn]

I think the general structure of the quests is fine the way it is. However, I'd drop anything that one can't reasonably find before going East - faerlhings are the worst offender here, but multi-hued wyrms are pretty bad too.

Also, Agrimley shouldn't be randomly placed. This adds tedium and favors spoilers.

[Zonk]

I think the general structure of the quests is fine the way it is. However, I'd drop anything that one can't reasonably find before going East - faerlhings are the worst offender here, but multi-hued wyrms are pretty bad too.

I agree, but you forgot ritches. Discounting adventurers, I think I'm more likely to get a multi hued wyrm in a Dreadfell vault than getting a ritch in the West(though I got it ONCE from the Ruined Dungeon).

[Reat]

As a further aid to the whole quest system all town zones should have a set level, not a level range as they currently do. Derth level 5, Last Hope level 20, Angolwen 30, etc. If there's a problem with shops stocking items that are too nice then up the prices to push them out of the reach of early game. Or come up with a shop system that's independent of zone levels. We need to stop the current activity of players deliberately avoiding a town until higher levels so nicer stuff appears in the shops.

Why not just have the town vendors refresh their inventories whenever the player levels up? Just reduce the amount of inventory per level, so there is never a great selection, but at least the items will always be on level.

[Avianpilot]

I like the ideas in the original post save for the 'only help one alchemist' one. Why not let the player help as many as he or she wants? Reminds me of those old sitcom sketches where one guy will make a date with two girls for the same evening. Those tend to end up badly for the guy, but I shouldn't think that the alchemists would dump you for finding out that you're seeing another alchemist. After all, they're not dedicated to your success, having multiple adventurers out looking for the stuff, so why should they assume that the reverse should be true?

I disagree with this idea largely because it can also hinder some odd builds. For example, I mentioned somewhere else that I'll occasionally try a Magic-tertiary Fighter (and you'll have a heck of a time getting me to call it a Bulwark), which would make the one Elvalan alchemist potion that raises Magic and Willpower more attractive. Sometimes I'll want the extra luck from the deaf alchemist so that I can balance out the Eldritch Pearl penalty. But just about all of my characters find the Last Hope alchemist to be the best choice overall. I'd really rather not see a character limited to having to choose only one and lock me out of being able to use their potions to further my build.

Side note: kudos to the person that wrote the Last Hope alchemist's lines. He currently is my favorite NPC in the game.

[Tom]

I think the general structure of the quests is fine the way it is. However, I'd drop anything that one can't reasonably find before going East - faerlhings are the worst offender here, but multi-hued wyrms are pretty bad too.

Also, Agrimley shouldn't be randomly placed. This adds tedium and favors spoilers.

Precisely.
The alchemist task is a very nice addition to the game and the fights vs the patrols are optional. There is a simpler, but slower way to complete it.
Not only optional, they are very interesting and are among the best fights the game can offer. (I have not played the game through though)

This is a game about dungeon crawling and combat

By removing the alchemist ingredients from the warpatrols will remove intresting combat, unless you add something else that makes players take the risk.
I can not understand the reason for this. I really can not.

They encourage the only form of scumming

I'd say 'They encourage a very dangerous quick route to the quest' instead of calling it scumming, which has a very negative touch to it.
I really do not think many players scum the parties for XP, do they?

Tom

[Grey]

I'd say 'They encourage a very dangerous quick route to the quest' instead of calling it scumming, which has a very negative touch to it.
I really do not think many players scum the parties for XP, do they?

They scum them for eq sometimes (well, I do anyway). For the ingredients it's pretty necessary though, since many ingredients can't be found till late game, or possibly can't be found at all if you already wiped out that creature type.

[Grey]

Idea for the last reward: You get another copy of everything you helped that alchemist create, but not the ones you missed out on. This guarantees it's something you want, whilst adding an extra nuance to choosing which rewards to get from which alchemist (since there are objections to not being aid several I think it's best to make the system a little more interesting instead). Thematically it works with the quest dialogue too, since the brewers do say they are making two copies of each - one for the player, and one for the guild judges. It makes sense that if they get in they give you back the spare copies you helped make.

The old rewards can be turned into random high level artifacts. Well, except the potion of invulnerability - it doesn't fit well in ToME4.

The existing early rewards need a little tweaking perhaps. For instance the generic and class point rewards could do with being just 1, whilst the armour bonus should maybe be converted to resist all.

[lukep]

What if the taint of Telepathy and Infusion of Wild Growth were replaced with just giving you the talent, perhaps weaker/with other drawbacks? This would make them much more useful, as they would no longer tie up a rare inscription slot.