Renaming Fighters

[Rectifier]

If you play a Berserker, you don't need to worry about your damage output; I like the suggestion of making him in the top spot or locking out the Fighter/Soldier.

Also starting out with Steel weapons would be op as shit.

[Aquillion]

Also starting out with Steel weapons would be op as shit.

Why? You can find a weapon that's just as good as a white steel weapon right within LoS as soon as the game begins, or after just a few steps; it's not that unheard of. The problem is that right now, the game's start is very luck-based because the weapon you start with is so absurdly inadequate.

However, I would suggest just buffing iron a bit. The leap from iron to steel shouldn't be so dramatic.

[Grey]

Alternatively increase the base damage for all actors.

I still don't think that deals with the underlying problem with Fighters being misnamed though.

[greycat]

I think the user was just not doing it right. Maybe he put all his stat points in Wil and all his generics in trap detection and armor training or something. I have no idea what, specifically, he did wrong, but he clearly did something wrong.

When I first played T4 (beta 1 or whatever it was), and I looked at the classes, I immediately recognized that the Fighter was like the Turtle Tamer from KoL -- a defensive warrior. I knew exactly what to expect, and I was not surprised in any way.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the Fighter. A new name might be sexy, if a good name can be found, but the gameplay is solid.

[jotwebe]

It could be the guy had a terrible build, or that he was in too high a level area but had enough defence to survive, or that he encountered the negative health bug.

From reading the guy's post, he couldn't even be bothered to try a single different class/race.

But I see what you mean better now: the problem with fighters is that it's easy to get the build wrong - it's natural to assume that if a skill is available, it's worthwile to activate and put points in. Berzerker has the same problem though: a sustain available off the bad, and is by name implied to be central to the class, that you should just leave alone for the beginning. Also counter-intuitive.

So even if we make Fighters less of an obvious go-to, to problem doesn't go away. I doubt a halfling zerker (let alone an alchie or rogue) would have fared much better than the posters halfling fighter, but maybe it'd have died more quickly and made him try something different. OTOH, I can't quite get over him not trying even one, ONE different combination. Oh well.

Anyway, I doubt changing names will affect the issue: a complex skill system which requires some thought and/or experience for any class.

What might help would be "recommended" leveling for the unlocked classes - have a button that says "Follow recommendation" right after pressing "G". Have it put in predetermined stat and skill upgrades and put you in the overview part of the leveling screen. Have builds prepared for 10 to 15-ish levels. Have the feature enabled by default, with an option to turn it off.

[greycat]

I think too much hand-holding becomes insulting. If you want to add hand-holding features in Easy mode, that's great, but I don't think it's needed in Normal or Insane mode.

If someone can't figure out how to play a Fighter in this game, maybe this just isn't the game for him/her. Hell, the tutorial character is essentially a Fighter.

Maybe he accidentally hit 'x' and swapped out his weapon and shield, and that's why he took "literally thousands" of keypresses to kill something. Dunno, still guessing.

[Grey]

I think the fact that there's only a Fighter tutorial is a bad thing, as like I said earlier they are not an easy class to adjust to from fighters in other roguelikes.

I agree that too much hand-holding is bad, and there's not actually anything wrong with the Fighter class itself. Just thought a different name would help push new players away from the class, or at least make them reconsider how it plays properly.

Incidentally, I'm guessing the guy had shield wall on and ended up in a high level area. With a regen infusion he could survive indefinitely, but the monsters he was fighting would have taken ages to die. And you may berate his stupidity, but often people make bad judgements with new games they take up, and the better we can present their initial options the easier they can get into it (and more likely they are to give DarkGod more money, which will eventually result in him giving up his job and working full time for our pleasure (no, not that sort of pleasure you sick man)).

[Grey]

In the latest version of Roguelike Radio my point has been reiterated:

http://roguelikeradio.blogspot.com/2011 ... epths.html

Around 8:40 in Andrew Doull brings up that he doesn't think Fighters in Frozen Depths are really fighters, since he expects fighters to purely bump to kill in roguelikes. This is a view shared across many players. Simply put, ToME4 has no Fighters in the traditional sense, and labelling a complex class with such a simplistic term is mis-selling the game (and ultimately confusing some new players).

[darkgod]

I concur that:
* fighters do not need gameplay changes (althought there is talk of giving them the new Conditioning tree in svn)
* need a rename to not be mistaken for a *boring* class

My heart currently swings between "Guardian" and "Stalwart Defender", the last one is neat but a tad long.
Both might be a bit too "glorious" though..

[Grey]

How about something more abstract, like Bulwark or Fender?

[daftigod]

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shield_Fig ... e_Class%29

[greycat]

I think the fact that there's only a Fighter tutorial is a bad thing, as like I said earlier they are not an easy class to adjust to from fighters in other roguelikes.

I'm confused... if you think they're hard to adjust to, why is a Fighter tutorial a bad thing? (I know, that's not precisely what you said, but... how would a tutorial for a class other than Fighter help people adjust to Fighters?)

I've got something I'm working on that may help, but it's not quite ready yet.

[Grey]

Because the fighter tutorial is short and more shows interface stuff than the complexity of the class. It also makes players think that fighters are the natural first class to play in the game, and I'm not too sure that they are.

Uh, sorry, bulwarks, not fighters ;)

[greycat]

http://te4.org/dl/thirdparty/t4walkthrough/index.html

Some more Fighter lovin', 'cause they needed some.

[Grey]

I think you need to note at the start that the class is now called Bulwark ;) Still, very impressive document. Must have taken ages to make!