I think the pushing of staff AB is a bit crazy. The spellpower boost does in any way replace the damage caused by most two-handers or by dual weapons. Also they don't benefit from weapons mastery damage bonus. The spellpower improves their spells, but the only ones of note are Arcane Destruction (which doesn't cover up the damage missed out anyway) and Flame (which doesn't change that much, and obviously misses out more compared with being double-procced). A magic-focused AB will suffer from lower accuracy and defence without St and Dx investment too. Couple that with lack of dedicated melee egos on staffs and you have a far weaker melee build. However with the alchemist staff tree (costs a cat point and misses out on some nice rewards) and Bolbum's Big Knocker it becomes a little more viable for damage output. Even then it's a niche option with minor (if any) advantages. I'm still not convinced you can't get a roughly equivalent spellpower boost through dual weapons (remember that Dex boosts count with Arcane Dexterity too).
Another option: dual daggers. This varies a little from normal dual weapons in that you can sideline strength a little and max Dexterity instead, giving a bigger boost to spellpower (which in turns feeds Arcane Destruction). However I would guess that this results in lower damage overall due to the lower mainhand damage. There's also a bit more defence from maxing Dex if going for a light armour build.
Other things to consider:
- Artifacts. Some two-handers scale 140%. Bill's tree trunk is a fantastic damage dealer early game. There are a lot of other good artifact two-handers mid-game. Unstoppable Mauler for instance can proc a second attack, which will also proc all the usual Arcane Blade extras (though usually it kills enemies before they all trigger). The Truth causes some great extra damage on attack. Dagger artifacts are less useful (Moon and Star for instance don't give the right sort of bonuses for the class). End game you'll care more about the purple egos, but early to mid you might be forced into two-handers by better weapon finds.
- Crystalline Focus works a little better on two-handers for huge arcane damage on attacks.
- Weapons Mastery benefits a two-hander build more. Knife Mastery isn't really worth investing in on a dual build.
- Stunning Blow is a fantastic skill, doing 160% weapon damage with a long stun and low cooldown. Dirty Fighting is nice too, but not as nice as this. For disabling enemies and killing them quickly this is the way to start all fights.
- Dual weapon builds have the advantage of higher APR on the off-hand against armoured foes.
- Need for only one two-hander weapon shouldn't be de-emphasised; the move up the material scales happens much easier.
Dual weapon still wins out in the end, but two-hander isn't as much of a sore loser as you make out, especially early game when you can't have Dirty Fighting.
One potential solution to the whole mess is to only allow equipping an off-hand weapon if you have the Dual Weapon Training tree. A bit like how you can only shoot with the archery tree.
Arcane blade
Moderator: Moderator
Re: Arcane blade
From a flavor and world view, I believe the Arcane Blade is properly placed in the Warrior group. These are soldiers, warriors, and people fighting on the front lines who also dabble in magic to augment their martial abilities. I don't think of front line warriors as people dual wielding daggers. What might interesting, and hasn't be done yet, is a 1-handed weapon only skill tree. We have trees for shields, trees for 2-handed weapons, and trees for dual-wielding, but not a single tree for using just a single 1-handed weapon. It might add some variety, and gives the impression of a warrior slashing with one hand while tossing off a flame shock in the other.
Finally, the Arcane Blade certainly works with 2-handed weapons as is. Stunning blow is an incredible skill, better than Dual Strike because of cool down. I used that power in every important fight in the game. I've had to turn off Arcane Combat in many medium to long boss battles, including the final fight, due to mana consumption and needing to reserve mana for sustains, movement and heals. I'd actually argue that in many important fights, willpower and your mana pool determines how much damage Arcane Combat does rather than increasing its occurrence chance from 20% per turns to 2 times 50%.
If I were given the choice of changing the melee tree open to Arcane Blades, I'd suggest making something unique. Rather than focusing on 2-handed weapons, focus on the concept of the hybrid. Make it so you want to both be hitting things and casting things. For variety, you could make it use just 1-handed weapons and an empty off-hand rather than 2-handers. Meaning you'd need to throw on some more powerful riders the attacks than whats in the Maiming tree (for instance).
As for the Dual wielding and Staff combat being better than 2-handed combat, how many people have looked at the full damage calculations? Not just the easy to see numbers, but the whole chain? You need to do that to be able to say "Staves are clearly better" or "Daggers are clearly better".
Damage calculations for a single hit goes something like:
(((Stat Modifier/1.5) * ((sqrt(Power/10)-1) * 0.8 + 1 ) * Talent Multiplier) - Armor) * Roll of Damage Range * Crit Multiplier (if present) * Damage Type Multiplier
And then DarkGod has all damage run through a final function which logarithmically scales back high end damage:
return dam * (1 - math.log10(dam * 2) / 7)
Basically 10 damage becomes 8.5, 100 becomes 71.4, 1000 becomes 571.4, and so on. So there's actually a benefit to lots of little attacks - they get hit less by the .
From the data files for the highest tier items (dragonbone, voratun)
Staves:
38 max power (effective 43), 1.2 damage range, APR 6, Crit 5, Spellpower 7, Spellcrit 5, 1.0 Mag
Daggers
40 max power, 1.3 damage range, APR 9, Crit 10, 0.45 Str, 0.45 Dex
2h Swords
66 max power, 1.6 damage range, APR 4, Crit 5, 1.2 Str
Staves effectively have 43 power, assuming 5/5 talent points in Arcane Destruction, because Arcane Destruction adds power at the rate of Spellpower * 6.5/9.
You would need an extra 31 spellpower to get even in power. At which point you're still down 1.0 Mag vs 1.2 Str, and down at 1.1 average damage range roll vs 1.3 average damage range roll.
Dual wielding (ignoring damage bonuses from elemental or fiery hands) is actually *worse*, on average, than 2 handed weapons. The base power calculation, ((sqrt(Power/10)-1) * 0.8 + 1 ), get multiplied by the stat modifiers (0.45 + 0.45), then the damage range, 1.15 on average, and then finally the weapon mastery bonus (about 200% maxed at 10/10). You then get to multiply by 1.5 for the off hand added in there. For a high end build with 110 from Arcane destruction, 100 Str, and 100 Dex, we get a damage per attack (1 hit of main and 1 hit off hand) of: 3.30 * 90 * 1.15 * 1.5 * 2 = 1024
For a 2-handed voratun greatsword, assuming 100 Str, and 110 power from Arcane destruction, we get a damage per attack (1 hit of main) of: 3.56 * 120 * 1.3 * 2 = 1110
The only thing improving dual wielding above this is additional damage effects per hit, such as Elemental. And the fact that a single hit is affected more by the logarithmic damage formula than 2 separate. So in the case of Elemental weapons you get about a 10% difference in favor the dual weapons. On the other hand, the 2-handed weapon only gets hit by armor once, so in high armor situations (50 or more), the 2-handed weapon can perform better even then.
*****
If I were given the choice of changing the melee tree open to Arcane Blades, I'd suggest making something unique. Rather than focusing on 2-handed weapons, focus on the concept of the hybrid. Make it so you want to both be hitting things and casting things. For variety, you could make it use just 1-handed weapons and an empty off-hand rather than 2-handers. Meaning you'd need to throw on some more powerful riders to the attacks than what is in the Maiming tree (for instance).
Amplified Strike:
The Arcane Blade channels an overwhelming amount of raw magic through her blade, stunning her target. Excess magic explodes out to daze adjacent enemies to the target.
-Activated attack, costs stamina, 6 turn cooldown
-Stuns target for (1 + talent) rounds
-Enemies adjacent to the target are dazed for 1 round
-Deals X% bonus damage, scales with talent points
Comments: This would be like Stunning blow, but with a little bit of crowd control element thrown in to offset the 20-30% less damage per hit.
Spell strike:
The Arcane Blade simultaneously begins casting a spell while striking with her weapon. Masters of this skill can finish the spell almost as the blow is struck.
-Activated attack, costs stamina, 6 turn cooldown
-X% bonus damage, scales with talent points.
-If the attack hits, gain an effect that reduces spell casting speed by 20% per talent point (to a minimum of 0%) for 1 round per raw talent point. Casting a spell resets casting speed to its normal value and makes the effect expire.
Comments: At 5/5 this provides a free turn (spent casting a spell) every 6 turns. That could be equated to something like a global haste of 31%. With a chance to miss though.
Mana strike:
The Arcane Blade utilizes the motions and energies of combat to power one of her spells.
-Activated attack, costs stamina, 6 turn cooldown
-X% bonus damage, scales with talent points
-If the attack hits, gain an effect that reduces mana costs by 5 per talent point (to a minimum of 0) for 1 round per raw talent point. Casting a spell resets mana costs to its normal value and makes the effect expire.
Comments: At 5/5 this provides roughly 25 extra mana, or equivalent to 4.1 mana regen rate. Although its not quite the same since its a discount. You can't save it and you can only really use it in the middle of combat - no running away and mana restoring quickly.
Spellblade Frenzy:
The Arcane Blade combines the flow of combat with the flow of ritual, subtlety changing the chaos of battle to amplify the power of her magic.
-Sustain, costs stamina, -4 stamina per turn
-For every enemy hit with her weapon, cumulative bonus to spellpower of 2 per talent point
-Bonus drops by 2 each turn (to a minimum of 0).
Comments: This would be the Blood frenzy analogue. It still helps physical damage thanks to Arcane Destruction, but at a slower rate. But it also can boost spells at the same time.
Finally, the Arcane Blade certainly works with 2-handed weapons as is. Stunning blow is an incredible skill, better than Dual Strike because of cool down. I used that power in every important fight in the game. I've had to turn off Arcane Combat in many medium to long boss battles, including the final fight, due to mana consumption and needing to reserve mana for sustains, movement and heals. I'd actually argue that in many important fights, willpower and your mana pool determines how much damage Arcane Combat does rather than increasing its occurrence chance from 20% per turns to 2 times 50%.
If I were given the choice of changing the melee tree open to Arcane Blades, I'd suggest making something unique. Rather than focusing on 2-handed weapons, focus on the concept of the hybrid. Make it so you want to both be hitting things and casting things. For variety, you could make it use just 1-handed weapons and an empty off-hand rather than 2-handers. Meaning you'd need to throw on some more powerful riders the attacks than whats in the Maiming tree (for instance).
As for the Dual wielding and Staff combat being better than 2-handed combat, how many people have looked at the full damage calculations? Not just the easy to see numbers, but the whole chain? You need to do that to be able to say "Staves are clearly better" or "Daggers are clearly better".
Damage calculations for a single hit goes something like:
(((Stat Modifier/1.5) * ((sqrt(Power/10)-1) * 0.8 + 1 ) * Talent Multiplier) - Armor) * Roll of Damage Range * Crit Multiplier (if present) * Damage Type Multiplier
And then DarkGod has all damage run through a final function which logarithmically scales back high end damage:
return dam * (1 - math.log10(dam * 2) / 7)
Basically 10 damage becomes 8.5, 100 becomes 71.4, 1000 becomes 571.4, and so on. So there's actually a benefit to lots of little attacks - they get hit less by the .
From the data files for the highest tier items (dragonbone, voratun)
Staves:
38 max power (effective 43), 1.2 damage range, APR 6, Crit 5, Spellpower 7, Spellcrit 5, 1.0 Mag
Daggers
40 max power, 1.3 damage range, APR 9, Crit 10, 0.45 Str, 0.45 Dex
2h Swords
66 max power, 1.6 damage range, APR 4, Crit 5, 1.2 Str
Staves effectively have 43 power, assuming 5/5 talent points in Arcane Destruction, because Arcane Destruction adds power at the rate of Spellpower * 6.5/9.
You would need an extra 31 spellpower to get even in power. At which point you're still down 1.0 Mag vs 1.2 Str, and down at 1.1 average damage range roll vs 1.3 average damage range roll.
Dual wielding (ignoring damage bonuses from elemental or fiery hands) is actually *worse*, on average, than 2 handed weapons. The base power calculation, ((sqrt(Power/10)-1) * 0.8 + 1 ), get multiplied by the stat modifiers (0.45 + 0.45), then the damage range, 1.15 on average, and then finally the weapon mastery bonus (about 200% maxed at 10/10). You then get to multiply by 1.5 for the off hand added in there. For a high end build with 110 from Arcane destruction, 100 Str, and 100 Dex, we get a damage per attack (1 hit of main and 1 hit off hand) of: 3.30 * 90 * 1.15 * 1.5 * 2 = 1024
For a 2-handed voratun greatsword, assuming 100 Str, and 110 power from Arcane destruction, we get a damage per attack (1 hit of main) of: 3.56 * 120 * 1.3 * 2 = 1110
The only thing improving dual wielding above this is additional damage effects per hit, such as Elemental. And the fact that a single hit is affected more by the logarithmic damage formula than 2 separate. So in the case of Elemental weapons you get about a 10% difference in favor the dual weapons. On the other hand, the 2-handed weapon only gets hit by armor once, so in high armor situations (50 or more), the 2-handed weapon can perform better even then.
*****
If I were given the choice of changing the melee tree open to Arcane Blades, I'd suggest making something unique. Rather than focusing on 2-handed weapons, focus on the concept of the hybrid. Make it so you want to both be hitting things and casting things. For variety, you could make it use just 1-handed weapons and an empty off-hand rather than 2-handers. Meaning you'd need to throw on some more powerful riders to the attacks than what is in the Maiming tree (for instance).
Amplified Strike:
The Arcane Blade channels an overwhelming amount of raw magic through her blade, stunning her target. Excess magic explodes out to daze adjacent enemies to the target.
-Activated attack, costs stamina, 6 turn cooldown
-Stuns target for (1 + talent) rounds
-Enemies adjacent to the target are dazed for 1 round
-Deals X% bonus damage, scales with talent points
Comments: This would be like Stunning blow, but with a little bit of crowd control element thrown in to offset the 20-30% less damage per hit.
Spell strike:
The Arcane Blade simultaneously begins casting a spell while striking with her weapon. Masters of this skill can finish the spell almost as the blow is struck.
-Activated attack, costs stamina, 6 turn cooldown
-X% bonus damage, scales with talent points.
-If the attack hits, gain an effect that reduces spell casting speed by 20% per talent point (to a minimum of 0%) for 1 round per raw talent point. Casting a spell resets casting speed to its normal value and makes the effect expire.
Comments: At 5/5 this provides a free turn (spent casting a spell) every 6 turns. That could be equated to something like a global haste of 31%. With a chance to miss though.
Mana strike:
The Arcane Blade utilizes the motions and energies of combat to power one of her spells.
-Activated attack, costs stamina, 6 turn cooldown
-X% bonus damage, scales with talent points
-If the attack hits, gain an effect that reduces mana costs by 5 per talent point (to a minimum of 0) for 1 round per raw talent point. Casting a spell resets mana costs to its normal value and makes the effect expire.
Comments: At 5/5 this provides roughly 25 extra mana, or equivalent to 4.1 mana regen rate. Although its not quite the same since its a discount. You can't save it and you can only really use it in the middle of combat - no running away and mana restoring quickly.
Spellblade Frenzy:
The Arcane Blade combines the flow of combat with the flow of ritual, subtlety changing the chaos of battle to amplify the power of her magic.
-Sustain, costs stamina, -4 stamina per turn
-For every enemy hit with her weapon, cumulative bonus to spellpower of 2 per talent point
-Bonus drops by 2 each turn (to a minimum of 0).
Comments: This would be the Blood frenzy analogue. It still helps physical damage thanks to Arcane Destruction, but at a slower rate. But it also can boost spells at the same time.
Re: Arcane blade
Ahahaha, I was actually hoping someone would go and crunch the numbers for me 
Many thanks for the summation and number crunching!
There's a few minor things to point out that I see you might have overlooked, though.
Dual-wielding AB probably isn't going to go dual-daggers, but rather a 1h+dagger (ultimately, spellblade + focus dagger or (even more preferably), the blood drinker -- which, incidentally, is 55% mag, 35% str.). This throws the numbers off a bit, I think, though I'll leave a more math capable (and less lazy) individual to note how much. There'd also be a combined SP boost of 55 (24+31) between the spellblade and blood drinker, which is one helluva combat multiplier for an AB.
A staff AB is likely not going to be using a dragonbone staff, even a purple one -- though, with the purple ones, an SP boost of 50+, and an accompanying weapon power boost, isn't impossible. They're either going to be using the innuendo stick (Bolbum's Big Knocker) which has 64 base damage and 1.4 mag scaling (along with a 20% boost to its damtype, heh, though only 18 spellpower) or Archmage Tarelion's staff, which, while only having 38 base weapon power, scales 1.5 with mag, boosts spellpower by 48, and increases its base damage by 24%. They both have a middlingly ridiculous spellcrit bonus, as well. These match up a lot more evenly with things like the gaping maw and the bellow hammer than a normal ego'd staff would.
Many thanks for the summation and number crunching!There's a few minor things to point out that I see you might have overlooked, though.
Dual-wielding AB probably isn't going to go dual-daggers, but rather a 1h+dagger (ultimately, spellblade + focus dagger or (even more preferably), the blood drinker -- which, incidentally, is 55% mag, 35% str.). This throws the numbers off a bit, I think, though I'll leave a more math capable (and less lazy
) individual to note how much. There'd also be a combined SP boost of 55 (24+31) between the spellblade and blood drinker, which is one helluva combat multiplier for an AB.A staff AB is likely not going to be using a dragonbone staff, even a purple one -- though, with the purple ones, an SP boost of 50+, and an accompanying weapon power boost, isn't impossible. They're either going to be using the innuendo stick (Bolbum's Big Knocker) which has 64 base damage and 1.4 mag scaling (along with a 20% boost to its damtype, heh, though only 18 spellpower) or Archmage Tarelion's staff, which, while only having 38 base weapon power, scales 1.5 with mag, boosts spellpower by 48, and increases its base damage by 24%. They both have a middlingly ridiculous spellcrit bonus, as well. These match up a lot more evenly with things like the gaping maw and the bellow hammer than a normal ego'd staff would.
Re: Arcane blade
I posted some tree ideas in a different thread a while ago, but such noted creative directors as Grey and edge felt my ideas were overblown.
There were four trees including a shield tree, a runeblade tree, and an edgeshaper tree that basically summoned giant elemental two-handers for a short time (link!).
It's a fair judgement, though. They definitely did not fit the criteria of "Their use of magic is innate and not really studied." Most people's impression of the AB:
There were four trees including a shield tree, a runeblade tree, and an edgeshaper tree that basically summoned giant elemental two-handers for a short time (link!).
It's a fair judgement, though. They definitely did not fit the criteria of "Their use of magic is innate and not really studied." Most people's impression of the AB:
Mine as someone who adores the "gish" caster-fighter archetype beyond all good taste:Hirumakai wrote:These are soldiers, warriors, and people fighting on the front lines who also dabble in magic to augment their martial abilities
Speaking of which, has anyone got any ideas for a Mage-meta weapon-wielder (even if it's only some vanity project for MoRE)? I can't figure this one out. Grey reckons on a caster that uses weaponry to channel and augment magic, while I started down the road of a warrior who uses magic to summon amazing weapons. Neither concept on its own is full enough for me to feel could be the seed or at least the sole genetic material for an entire new class.Nagyhal wrote:Masters of the universe, commanding both melee weapon expertise and incredible magical displays of destruction, the Arcane blade can obliterate an empire before breakfast. The Arcane Blade is the most metal thing ever, headbanging in libraries, swearing casually at old ladies, and wearing Burzum neckties during office hours on a Monday.
Re: Arcane blade
I had an idea for an 'illusionist' class, based around conjuring illusionary allies to distract, confuse, or blind the enemy, and teleporting around in slight-of-hand sorts of attacks, then unleashing illusion-backed flurries and the like -- a sort of stage-magician class, part magic, part slight-of-hand. They'd be playable with a weapon or a staff, since their trees would vary in terms of how much they rely on spell power, and some of their optional ones would use magically-enhanced weapon or ranged attacks.Nagyhal wrote:Speaking of which, has anyone got any ideas for a Mage-meta weapon-wielder (even if it's only some vanity project for MoRE)? I can't figure this one out. Grey reckons on a caster that uses weaponry to channel and augment magic, while I started down the road of a warrior who uses magic to summon amazing weapons. Neither concept on its own is full enough for me to feel could be the seed or at least the sole genetic material for an entire new class.
Re: Arcane blade
Late game you almost never go 1-handed sword and dagger because of Weapons Mastery and Knife Mastery. Weapons mastery at 10/10 provides a 104% damage bonus, which is where that last times 2 comes from in the damage calculations. Knife mastery is the same, but for daggers. If you go 5/10 and 5/10, you only have a 74% damage bonus, putting you down 1.74/2.04 = 0.85, or effectively another 15%. Otherwise you're spending 20 generic points just to maximize your damage with a 1-handed weapon and dagger. That leaves the Arcane Blade deficient in too many other areas to be worth the trade off.
The problem with the Artifact staves you mention is Staff Mastery caps out at 6.5 effective talent points for Alchemists (even less for Arcane Blades). This means they get at most a 1.8 multiplier instead of 2.04, passively. Also their damage range is only 1.2. Thus they roll between 1 and 1.2, for an average of 1.1.
So lets compare Archmage Tarelion's staff and a Purple Quick Voratun Greatsword of Rage (0.9 attack speed, 15% Physical damage bonus, 8 strength). Assuming equal magic and strength, and only the spellpower difference due to the weapons themselves, the attack power is within 6 points of each other. This is about a 1% effect by the time you're near 180 attack power. Assuming power 186, The ((power/10)^0.5 - 1)*0.8 +1) for the staff is 3.65. The Voratun sword (assuming 66 base), has 180 power and has a multiplier of 3.59. We assume all stats are 100.
Staves: 3.65 * (150 mag/ 1.5) * 1.1 range * 1.8 mastery * 1.24 damage type = 896 per turn.
2 handed Purples (Quick and Rage with 8 str and 15% physical): 3.59 * (120 str/1.5) * 1.3 range * 2.04 mastery * 1.15 damage type * 1.11 speed = 972 per turn.
Thats assuming 5/5 staff mastery with a 1.3 talent modifier which I don't think we'd get if added staff combat to the Arcane blade tree. You can fudge the numbers a little by reducing the generic points invested in Weapon mastery and so forth, but as it stands, a Purple Voratun weapon puts out about as much damage per game turn as the best possible artifact staff.
The Spellblade and blooddrinker combo comes within about 5% of the damage per turn of the Quick Voratun Greatsword of Rage.
Spellblade + blood drinker: Assuming the same as above, we have 204 power and 196 power for mods of 3.81 and 3.74/2 = 1.87.
((3.81 * (96 str/1.5) * 1.25 range) + (1.87 * ((56 Mag + 33.6 Str)/1.5) * 1.15 range)) * 1.74 mastery * 1.18 damage type = 889 + 45 damage = 934 damage per turn
If you're willing to spend another 10 generic points, that can go as high as 1042 per turn. This is also ignoring the log damage scale which does favor two weapon hits over a single hit, but that something that varies as you go from low level to high level. However, looking at this does remind me that dual daggers will do better than the 2-hander because of twice the magic bonuses. If I do an apples to apples comparison and allow the daggers to also be Quick Voratun daggers of Rage we get something like:
Assuming +8 str/+10 dex each weapon, 15% Physical damage bonus, and 0.9 weapon speed:
Dual Quick Voratun daggers of Rage(3.33 +3.33/2) * ((49.5 str + 49.5 dex) /1.5) 1.15 range * 2.04 mastery * 1.3 damage type * 1.11 speed = 1116 per turn
That is an improvement over the 2-hander by about 15%, basically that second copy of +15% physical damage puts you over the top.
In any case, I'm pretty sure its possible to win the game on Rogue-like difficulty with any of these weapon combinations. I've done it twice with 2-handed weapons. Although I tend to prefer planning on getting purples because they're more likely to be gotten in a game, and also occur at all material levels. Its quite possible some artifact weapons to simply not drop during a game.
The problem with the Artifact staves you mention is Staff Mastery caps out at 6.5 effective talent points for Alchemists (even less for Arcane Blades). This means they get at most a 1.8 multiplier instead of 2.04, passively. Also their damage range is only 1.2. Thus they roll between 1 and 1.2, for an average of 1.1.
So lets compare Archmage Tarelion's staff and a Purple Quick Voratun Greatsword of Rage (0.9 attack speed, 15% Physical damage bonus, 8 strength). Assuming equal magic and strength, and only the spellpower difference due to the weapons themselves, the attack power is within 6 points of each other. This is about a 1% effect by the time you're near 180 attack power. Assuming power 186, The ((power/10)^0.5 - 1)*0.8 +1) for the staff is 3.65. The Voratun sword (assuming 66 base), has 180 power and has a multiplier of 3.59. We assume all stats are 100.
Staves: 3.65 * (150 mag/ 1.5) * 1.1 range * 1.8 mastery * 1.24 damage type = 896 per turn.
2 handed Purples (Quick and Rage with 8 str and 15% physical): 3.59 * (120 str/1.5) * 1.3 range * 2.04 mastery * 1.15 damage type * 1.11 speed = 972 per turn.
Thats assuming 5/5 staff mastery with a 1.3 talent modifier which I don't think we'd get if added staff combat to the Arcane blade tree. You can fudge the numbers a little by reducing the generic points invested in Weapon mastery and so forth, but as it stands, a Purple Voratun weapon puts out about as much damage per game turn as the best possible artifact staff.
The Spellblade and blooddrinker combo comes within about 5% of the damage per turn of the Quick Voratun Greatsword of Rage.
Spellblade + blood drinker: Assuming the same as above, we have 204 power and 196 power for mods of 3.81 and 3.74/2 = 1.87.
((3.81 * (96 str/1.5) * 1.25 range) + (1.87 * ((56 Mag + 33.6 Str)/1.5) * 1.15 range)) * 1.74 mastery * 1.18 damage type = 889 + 45 damage = 934 damage per turn
If you're willing to spend another 10 generic points, that can go as high as 1042 per turn. This is also ignoring the log damage scale which does favor two weapon hits over a single hit, but that something that varies as you go from low level to high level. However, looking at this does remind me that dual daggers will do better than the 2-hander because of twice the magic bonuses. If I do an apples to apples comparison and allow the daggers to also be Quick Voratun daggers of Rage we get something like:
Assuming +8 str/+10 dex each weapon, 15% Physical damage bonus, and 0.9 weapon speed:
Dual Quick Voratun daggers of Rage(3.33 +3.33/2) * ((49.5 str + 49.5 dex) /1.5) 1.15 range * 2.04 mastery * 1.3 damage type * 1.11 speed = 1116 per turn
That is an improvement over the 2-hander by about 15%, basically that second copy of +15% physical damage puts you over the top.
In any case, I'm pretty sure its possible to win the game on Rogue-like difficulty with any of these weapon combinations. I've done it twice with 2-handed weapons. Although I tend to prefer planning on getting purples because they're more likely to be gotten in a game, and also occur at all material levels. Its quite possible some artifact weapons to simply not drop during a game.
Re: Arcane blade
Thank you for the effort, yeah.
From what I'm parsing, what you've shown shows that D-AB is well and beyond more powerful (at least re: Damage output) than either two-hand build, simply because of the greater chance to proc AC and the chance to double-cast. This is somewhat resource limited, but if nothing else it means short term damage is going to be considerably (Easily a few hundred damage per round) higher. Which is what I suspected, but having numbers behind it is awesome
I'd probably say warbringer/shearing would be the better combo for dual-daggers, though, especially if physical resistances were involved. Those are some nasty egos, heh.
From what I'm parsing, what you've shown shows that D-AB is well and beyond more powerful (at least re: Damage output) than either two-hand build, simply because of the greater chance to proc AC and the chance to double-cast. This is somewhat resource limited, but if nothing else it means short term damage is going to be considerably (Easily a few hundred damage per round) higher. Which is what I suspected, but having numbers behind it is awesome
I'd probably say warbringer/shearing would be the better combo for dual-daggers, though, especially if physical resistances were involved. Those are some nasty egos, heh.
Re: Arcane blade
Careful about that assumption. Remember, as implemented, Arcane Blade doesn't have any skills to really go with dual-wielding. You can actually take things like Stunning Blow, which is a 160% damage modifier every 6th attack plus stun. If you take Sunder Armor and Sunder Arms to 5/5 you can get 3 attacks with 160% damage modifiers on each every 6 turns. That is a straight up extra 30% damage per turn while your stamina lasts.Frumple wrote:Thank you for the effort, yeah.
From what I'm parsing, what you've shown shows that D-AB is well and beyond more powerful (at least re: Damage output) than either two-hand build, simply because of the greater chance to proc AC and the chance to double-cast. This is somewhat resource limited, but if nothing else it means short term damage is going to be considerably (Easily a few hundred damage per round) higher. Which is what I suspected, but having numbers behind it is awesome
And it does really depend on the situation. For example, take the situational Blood Frenzy. There's no other effect quite like it in the game. In a certain end game quest involving a bunch of demons, I've had Arcane blades with 1104 attack power. Thats a 4 digit number.
In that situation, the character's average damage per turn, if it were not for Darkgod's logarithmic damage scale, would have been:
26.7 * 126 str/1.5 * 1.3 range * 1.1 damage type * 2.04 mastery = 6542 per turn. Of course, you start running into overkill on greater demons (U's)... Admittedly you can't pull that off everywhere since you need to kill about 80 enemies in a row. Can't really do it in most boss fights - but works surprisingly well in many vaults.