Mastery Points

[Silvermoon]

Another idea for revising the skill system.

First, skill trees at character birth --

Each skill tree is either mastery level 1.0 (available to the class) or 1.3 (class specializes in this). Some skill trees are locked as per normal. The distinction between class and generic skills is removed -- it is encompassed within the mastery system.

Every level you gain 2 skill points. These can be used to raise skills as per normal.
Every 3 levels, you gain one Mastery point which can be used to increase the mastery of a tree by 0.05.
Every 10 levels you gain one Unlock point that functions as category points do now, minus the ability to boost mastery.

Mastery caps at 2.00, but can be exceeded with equipment.

In the process, I would like to see skills that are unaffected by effective talent level revised, even if they have to be weakened at lower levels. This allows abilities to scale properly with level. Examples might be Fast Metabolism being altered to +0.75 HP per turn making the skill nearly identical for 1.3 rated classes, but still able to be made more potent via mastery.

Edit: One more thing, racial talent trees cannot have their mastery adjusted via mastery points -- one can't become 'better' at being a Dwarf. Equipment might still affect them.

[Aquillion]

What are you trying to accomplish with this change?

The distinction between class and generic skills serves an important purpose that you seem to be ignoring. Specifically, it forces players to divide their talent points between distinctive flashy stuff that defines your class, and bread-and-butter stuff that sometimes forms the backbone of what you need to do. Otherwise, players might feel that they have to put everything in their class talents and ignore useful-but-less-raw-powerful stuff; or they might be forced to neglect the flashy fun defining stuff in favor of bread-and-butter stuff. Neither of these are desirable, so separating them out helps avoid the issue.

[Silvermoon]

Counterpoint: What purpose does forcing players to split their skills (in a completely arbitrary fashion) do?

There are multiple reasons why the current system is broken.

There are two that actually matter to me:

First, it's extremely counter-intuitive in implemented; there are many classes where 'generic' skills are far more class-oriented than many actual 'class' skills. Meditation, for example, is absolutely class skill for Summoners, yet is levelled up with generic points, while the utility summoner tree is class-points, but (as it's name implies) is far more utility oriented and fits better with your supposed idea of generic talents.

Second, it pidgeonholes some classes. While the system seems to be designed to increase diversity, the current system actually promoted (limited) homogenization.

As an example, it's not entirely unreasonable to want to play a hardcore summoner who doesn't melee. Supposing that you do not take anything in the Combat Training tree other than a single point in Armor Training, a Cornac Summoner at level 49 literally RUNS OUT of places to put generic points (at level 48 if they haven't take the Armor point) without unlocking at least one locked tree. And that's WITHOUT the generic skill point potion. Not to mention how many of those skills will largely go unused.

Note, I don't expect someone to go to the extreme of not unlocking another tree, but when 'diversity' is equal to 'we both have exactly identical generic skill sets with the exception of 4 skills', I would argue that your concept of 'diversity' is about as diverse as an 8-pack of slightly-different-shades-of-red crayons as opposed to a traditional set of Crayola 96.


Generally speaking, the way to richer character building is to have more options, not less. This holds true of basically every game ever. If you really want to force people into spreading points around, require more levels to rank a skill beyond a single point (ex. Level 1/3/6/10/15 required instead of 1/2/3/4/5), which will force a diverse set of skills while still keeping options open.


In short, the skill system is not robust enough to justify splitting it. Some classes are worse about it than others. But the whole system, as-is, literally feels like it was instituted because someone responsible for the development of the game wanted people to diversify skills more, and couldn't think of another way to do it. I'm not saying my method is the answer, but the current one is severely flawed.

[lukep]

What I would see people doing with the proposed system is selecting one tree (either because it has a very good skill, or a good combination of them) and focusing entirely on it, with 14 (out of 15) mastery boosts and 20 (out of 60) class points (or whatever they are named in this). This has the effect of of narrowing the build of a class much more, and making them less able to deal with a wide range of situations. It would make make a cycle of:

invest class points in a talent => The talent tree has a larger investment, making it more attractive for mastery boosts
invest mastery points in the tree => The talents are more powerful, making them more attractive for class points.

This would lead to more builds defined by a single tree, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I don't know if it is intended, or desirable.

[Aquillion]

Would you ever actually put a point into meditation that could have been put into making your summons stronger? I certainly wouldn't.

[Silvermoon]

What I would see people doing with the proposed system is selecting one tree (either because it has a very good skill, or a good combination of them) and focusing entirely on it, with 14 (out of 15) mastery boosts and 20 (out of 60) class points (or whatever they are named in this). This has the effect of of narrowing the build of a class much more, and making them less able to deal with a wide range of situations. It would make make a cycle of:

invest class points in a talent => The talent tree has a larger investment, making it more attractive for mastery boosts
invest mastery points in the tree => The talents are more powerful, making them more attractive for class points.

This would lead to more builds defined by a single tree, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I don't know if it is intended, or desirable.

Generally speaking, I am not in favor of protecting players from their own stupidity. I am pro-choice, pro-suicide. Gimmick characters can be doomed to fail, but still be fun to play.

[Reat]

Just a quick add to this thread: I would like to know why I have to spend class points to raise bow/sling mastery on an archer when all the melee masteries are general skills. It also makes me a sad panda when I think about splashing bow skills on a fighter with their maxed str/dex, and then remembering they don't have access to bow mastery.

[marvalis]

First, it's extremely counter-intuitive in implemented; there are many classes where 'generic' skills are far more class-oriented than many actual 'class' skills. Meditation, for example, is absolutely class skill for Summoners, yet is levelled up with generic points, while the utility summoner tree is class-points, but (as it's name implies) is far more utility oriented and fits better with your supposed idea of generic talents.

I always thought more of it as a 'combat skills' and 'non-combat skills' mechanic. The player gets points to improve his combat skills (attack skills, summons, ...) and some point to improve non-combat skills (meditation, ...). You could always argue that some healing skills should be class skills, and that weapon mastery is an attack talent too (since it increases damage) but it is still not a straight-out attack skill.
Maybe 'generic' and 'class' can be renamed to something more appropriate? Idunno.

As an example, it's not entirely unreasonable to want to play a hardcore summoner who doesn't melee. Supposing that you do not take anything in the Combat Training tree other than a single point in Armor Training, a Cornac Summoner at level 49 literally RUNS OUT of places to put generic points (at level 48 if they haven't take the Armor point) without unlocking at least one locked tree. And that's WITHOUT the generic skill point potion. Not to mention how many of those skills will largely go unused.

Did you take into account harmony and the health talents? I never seem to have to many general points for my summoners. Harmony is unlocked by eating the sand queen hart, and there is not reason why you should not get this free unlock.