Since this tree lost some of it's appeal with the Con resist all change I'd like to take another look at it and possibly do a full rewrite.
So I'm asking the community for ideas. Maybe if it turns out good enough and generic enough we can convince Darkgod to pass it on to warrior escorts as well as the warrior classes who are shy on generic talent trees.
So lets here some ideas. What could be improved, what could be dropped and rewritten, what would be some fun generic warriorish talents you guys would like to see in game?
Rewriting the Physical Conditioning Tree
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Re: Rewriting the Physical Conditioning Tree
It's just such a boring tree. It doesn't really open up new strategies for you or anything... I'd want to see it rewritten into talents that actually change the way you play, at least a little bit, rather than just "I am generically tougher against X" written in four different ways. Unflinching Resolve is the only talent in there that isn't just a boring increase to one stat or another.
More ways of dealing with status afflications would probably be best. Right now they're too brutal. Especially if it's available from escorts -- that would decrease the rather heavy weight on Providence.
One thing that might be a slightly more interesting way to deal with pins, confusion, paralysis and stuns might be to have a talent that gives you an X% chance to throw off each mental or physical status affliction on you every time you're hit for more than Y% of your life, with X increasing and Y decreasing with more talent points invested, and maybe scaling with Constitution, too.
(Which reminds me: Now that constitution does less and is less vital, it might be worth having some more things that scale off it -- I assume it was avoided previously because it was so necessary anyway.)
Maybe a talent that increases your healing mod as your percentage of your health gets lower, for dramatic recoveries (though, if it's available from escorts, you'd have to consider its interaction with blurred mortality.)
Maybe a talent that gives you a %Y to throw off a random affliction every turn if you have more than X afflictions on you (with X going from, say, 5->4->3->2->1 based on talent level, and %Y scaling with talent level, constitution, and number of afflictions.) Basically, you're so tough that if you get lit on fire, poisoned, and cursed, you won't even notice the poison under all those other things... or something.
Maybe a talent that gives you a %Y chance to throw off a random mental, disease or poison affliction every time you recover more than X hp in a single turn, including via regeneration, with the percentage also scaling a bit based on the HP you recovered that turn. This would turn regen effects into mini-Providences, and in the hands of people like berzerkers who get big easy nearly constant regen bonuses it could be overwhelmingly effective, but since it won't work on everything and Y can be adjusted to balance it (and would be fairly low when you're just regenerating rather than recovering a massive lump sum of HP), it's probably all right.
(I would like to suggest that some of these should affect other forms of afflictions, but I'm not sure that's justifiable.)
More ways of dealing with status afflications would probably be best. Right now they're too brutal. Especially if it's available from escorts -- that would decrease the rather heavy weight on Providence.
One thing that might be a slightly more interesting way to deal with pins, confusion, paralysis and stuns might be to have a talent that gives you an X% chance to throw off each mental or physical status affliction on you every time you're hit for more than Y% of your life, with X increasing and Y decreasing with more talent points invested, and maybe scaling with Constitution, too.
(Which reminds me: Now that constitution does less and is less vital, it might be worth having some more things that scale off it -- I assume it was avoided previously because it was so necessary anyway.)
Maybe a talent that increases your healing mod as your percentage of your health gets lower, for dramatic recoveries (though, if it's available from escorts, you'd have to consider its interaction with blurred mortality.)
Maybe a talent that gives you a %Y to throw off a random affliction every turn if you have more than X afflictions on you (with X going from, say, 5->4->3->2->1 based on talent level, and %Y scaling with talent level, constitution, and number of afflictions.) Basically, you're so tough that if you get lit on fire, poisoned, and cursed, you won't even notice the poison under all those other things... or something.
Maybe a talent that gives you a %Y chance to throw off a random mental, disease or poison affliction every time you recover more than X hp in a single turn, including via regeneration, with the percentage also scaling a bit based on the HP you recovered that turn. This would turn regen effects into mini-Providences, and in the hands of people like berzerkers who get big easy nearly constant regen bonuses it could be overwhelmingly effective, but since it won't work on everything and Y can be adjusted to balance it (and would be fairly low when you're just regenerating rather than recovering a massive lump sum of HP), it's probably all right.
(I would like to suggest that some of these should affect other forms of afflictions, but I'm not sure that's justifiable.)
Last edited by Aquillion on Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Rewriting the Physical Conditioning Tree
Nice ideas Aquillion 
And I agree, the tree is booorriiinngg. Badly needs a rewrite. It was ill conceived by whoever conceived it so Brawlers would have something to invest in 
The resolve effect on the capstone talent is the only thing interesting about it.
One idea I had was a free action last stand sort of talent. Activate to increase your current life and max life by an amount. When the effect expires you lose all the max life increase and your current hit point percentage remains the same (in other words if you're at 10% life and that's 100 hit points with the 200 max life bonus your life would drop to 80 hit points when the effect expires.)
Another thought was that adrenaline rush idea that was posted (except as a talent rather then a blanket actor effect). Take a big hit and get really mean.
And I agree, the tree is booorriiinngg. Badly needs a rewrite. It was ill conceived by whoever conceived it so Brawlers would have something to invest in The resolve effect on the capstone talent is the only thing interesting about it.One idea I had was a free action last stand sort of talent. Activate to increase your current life and max life by an amount. When the effect expires you lose all the max life increase and your current hit point percentage remains the same (in other words if you're at 10% life and that's 100 hit points with the 200 max life bonus your life would drop to 80 hit points when the effect expires.)
Another thought was that adrenaline rush idea that was posted (except as a talent rather then a blanket actor effect). Take a big hit and get really mean.
Re: Rewriting the Physical Conditioning Tree
Also, maybe a passive or sustained talent that allows you to survive with any amount of negative HP for one turn? (Would allowing it to be raw talent level turns be too powerful? I think it would be, unless it had some other limitation to keep it from kicking in too often. Allowing someone to pop above negatives once every five turns and still survive indefinitely would probably be overpowered.) Not sure how it could scale, though.
Perhaps it could be an X% chance of not dying while at negative HP as long as you weren't in the negatives last turn, or something, so it's not reliable but can definitely save your life against unexpected things.
Perhaps it could be an X% chance of not dying while at negative HP as long as you weren't in the negatives last turn, or something, so it's not reliable but can definitely save your life against unexpected things.
Re: Rewriting the Physical Conditioning Tree
We need a talent that triggers when you fall below 10% HP that gives freedom of action (ignores but does not remove any effects that stun, daze pin, slow etc.) 20% damage resistance and 30% increased damage for 2-8 turns.
In pretty much every single martial arts film and series ever made its almost inevitable that just before death the protagonist suddenly powers up shrugs off whatever it was that was stopping him kicking ass, and then proceeds to kick ass (having kicked ass, walking away, collapse, coma, death or icecream are all viable options. (except the icecream)
In pretty much every single martial arts film and series ever made its almost inevitable that just before death the protagonist suddenly powers up shrugs off whatever it was that was stopping him kicking ass, and then proceeds to kick ass (having kicked ass, walking away, collapse, coma, death or icecream are all viable options. (except the icecream)
Re: Rewriting the Physical Conditioning Tree
Aquillion wrote:Also, maybe a passive or sustained talent that allows you to survive with any amount of negative HP for one turn? (Would allowing it to be raw talent level turns be too powerful? I think it would be, unless it had some other limitation to keep it from kicking in too often. Allowing someone to pop above negatives once every five turns and still survive indefinitely would probably be overpowered.) Not sure how it could scale, though.
Perhaps it could be an X% chance of not dying while at negative HP as long as you weren't in the negatives last turn, or something, so it's not reliable but can definitely save your life against unexpected things.
Okay, hivemind...Elkan wrote:We need a talent that triggers when you fall below 10% HP that gives freedom of action (ignores but does not remove any effects that stun, daze pin, slow etc.) 20% damage resistance and 30% increased damage for 2-8 turns.
In pretty much every single martial arts film and series ever made its almost inevitable that just before death the protagonist suddenly powers up shrugs off whatever it was that was stopping him kicking ass, and then proceeds to kick ass (having kicked ass, walking away, collapse, coma, death or icecream are all viable options. (except the icecream)
Re: Rewriting the Physical Conditioning Tree
I might start coding this tomorrow but either way I'm still looking for ideas so....
BUMP!
BUMP!
Re: Rewriting the Physical Conditioning Tree
Idea spam:
small chance to disarm enemy when hit in melee
Being hit by arrows makes you spiky, giving + physical damage when hit in melee
+ duration on mobility talents (movement infusion etc...)
+ movement speed (passive or sustained)
+ stamina when you get hit for high damage
+ Air capacity and air regeneration, combined with something else
Chance to reverse knockbacks, making it affect the attacker and not you.
Hope these (or at least one of them) are useful.
small chance to disarm enemy when hit in melee
Being hit by arrows makes you spiky, giving + physical damage when hit in melee
+ duration on mobility talents (movement infusion etc...)
+ movement speed (passive or sustained)
+ stamina when you get hit for high damage
+ Air capacity and air regeneration, combined with something else
Chance to reverse knockbacks, making it affect the attacker and not you.
Hope these (or at least one of them) are useful.
Re: Rewriting the Physical Conditioning Tree
Hrm.
A talent that reduces any damage you take from 'field' effects -- ice storm, inferno, fearscape, etc. Those tend to be very powerful, and while you can usually escape via teleport and such, it'd be fun to be able to play a character that could wade into them.
A talent that increases your health regen, damage, and resist all based on the number of negative effects placed on you by enemies (things you do to yourself should be disqualified, if possible -- especially saturation effects shouldn't count.)
A talent that recovers a certain amount of stamina whenever you receive a direct heal, and boosts your stamina regeneration based on your health regeneration.
A talent that gives you a substantial long-duration buff to your immunity to a negative effect's type whenever you're hit by one (so when you get poisoned, or frozen, or whatever, you get a big boost to your immunity to later copies of that effect for a while.)
A talent that reduces any damage you take from 'field' effects -- ice storm, inferno, fearscape, etc. Those tend to be very powerful, and while you can usually escape via teleport and such, it'd be fun to be able to play a character that could wade into them.
A talent that increases your health regen, damage, and resist all based on the number of negative effects placed on you by enemies (things you do to yourself should be disqualified, if possible -- especially saturation effects shouldn't count.)
A talent that recovers a certain amount of stamina whenever you receive a direct heal, and boosts your stamina regeneration based on your health regeneration.
A talent that gives you a substantial long-duration buff to your immunity to a negative effect's type whenever you're hit by one (so when you get poisoned, or frozen, or whatever, you get a big boost to your immunity to later copies of that effect for a while.)
Re: Rewriting the Physical Conditioning Tree
So some ideas I'm looking at. They're all passive which might not be good.
Needs a name
When you're hit by a physical or mental effect your physical saves and physical resistance or mental saves and mind resistance are increased by X for a few turns.
Quick Recovery
Increases your healing modifier and stamina regen when your health drops below 50% and reduces the duration of all wound effects (new subtype that includes bleeds and what not) by 10% per talent level (the later effect is not dependent on health just the healing modifier and stamina regen are).
Adrenaline Rush
When you're hit for more then 15 - (raw talent level)% of your maximum health in a single blow your adrenaline kicks in increasing damage and resist all by X for a few turns.
Tireless
Increases your maximum stamina by 15 per talent point invested. -- Kinda boring but it would give warriors the option of inflating their stamina pool to use another sustain or just having a bigger stamina pool.
Thoughts? To passive? Still to boring? To conditional?
Needs a name
When you're hit by a physical or mental effect your physical saves and physical resistance or mental saves and mind resistance are increased by X for a few turns.
Quick Recovery
Increases your healing modifier and stamina regen when your health drops below 50% and reduces the duration of all wound effects (new subtype that includes bleeds and what not) by 10% per talent level (the later effect is not dependent on health just the healing modifier and stamina regen are).
Adrenaline Rush
When you're hit for more then 15 - (raw talent level)% of your maximum health in a single blow your adrenaline kicks in increasing damage and resist all by X for a few turns.
Tireless
Increases your maximum stamina by 15 per talent point invested. -- Kinda boring but it would give warriors the option of inflating their stamina pool to use another sustain or just having a bigger stamina pool.
Thoughts? To passive? Still to boring? To conditional?
Re: Rewriting the Physical Conditioning Tree
Another thought on Adrenaline Rush is to make it an activated physical damage boost that also clears (or has a chance to clear) a physical or mental effect each turn (though adding another providence like effect should probably in turn nerf providence, maybe providence could just clear physical and magical effects).
Effectively it would be splitting Providence into two effects.
Effectively it would be splitting Providence into two effects.
Re: Rewriting the Physical Conditioning Tree
-I can't remember if is already in the game, but i would like a passive chance of deflecting arrows, with a % of redirecting to the owner instead of random deflecting.
-some way to enlarge the combo points pool, to unleash powerful finishing moves (even more powerful)
-an activated/sustained skill that give knockback x to all normal attacks
-some more AoE effect, like rushing to every enemy in a radius
-a sort of dragon punch, hitting all enemies in a line and knock aside everything while traveling to the target square (also gap closin for those pesky teleporters)
-some way to enlarge the combo points pool, to unleash powerful finishing moves (even more powerful)
-an activated/sustained skill that give knockback x to all normal attacks
-some more AoE effect, like rushing to every enemy in a radius
-a sort of dragon punch, hitting all enemies in a line and knock aside everything while traveling to the target square (also gap closin for those pesky teleporters)
Re: Rewriting the Physical Conditioning Tree
When I started reading Adrenaline Rush, I thought it would be a passive that restored your stamina whenever you took a 15-10% damage attack. That could be fun, especially for the brawler in the ring of blood. (Random thought: A special quest for Brawlers in the Ring of Blood would be neat.)
Did you ever pursue your idea of fatigue reduction/allowing heavy armour for brawlers? If the attack speed was penalized appropriately, I think it would be a cool option. Just not sure if adjusting from 60/80% attack speed to 100% is enough to offset the bonuses of heavy armour, and I doubt you'd want to go above 100% attack speed.
The first talent does seem really dull, though not too bad assuming it is applied before the effect's duration is set. Unfortunately I don't have any alternatives to suggest.
Quick Recovery might be more balanced and generally more useful if it increased both life regen and healing mod by a small amount instead of just healing mod by a large amount.
Did you ever pursue your idea of fatigue reduction/allowing heavy armour for brawlers? If the attack speed was penalized appropriately, I think it would be a cool option. Just not sure if adjusting from 60/80% attack speed to 100% is enough to offset the bonuses of heavy armour, and I doubt you'd want to go above 100% attack speed.
The first talent does seem really dull, though not too bad assuming it is applied before the effect's duration is set. Unfortunately I don't have any alternatives to suggest.
Quick Recovery might be more balanced and generally more useful if it increased both life regen and healing mod by a small amount instead of just healing mod by a large amount.
Sorry about all the parentheses (sometimes I like to clarify things).
Re: Rewriting the Physical Conditioning Tree
Defensive procs on receiving hits would be good. Dungeons of Dredmor has some nice talents where when you're hit there's an x% chance of receiving some stat boosting or regenerating effect. Same for on attacks. Would be nice to see more random on hit effects like this in ToME4 (Arcane Combat is the only one at the moment - everything else is 100% chance, which makes you appreciate it less).
Re: Rewriting the Physical Conditioning Tree
I'll mention what I suggested in chat for Adrenaline Rush - chance based on how severely wounded you are of randomly reducing the cooldown of some talents.
This could be in addition to more direct effects, of course. The idea being that in your critical conditions you can chain techniques/use them way more often than usual.
This could be in addition to more direct effects, of course. The idea being that in your critical conditions you can chain techniques/use them way more often than usual.
ToME online profile: http://te4.org/users/zonk
Addons (most likely obsolete): Wights, Trolls, Starting prodigy, Alternate save/resistance system
Addons (most likely obsolete): Wights, Trolls, Starting prodigy, Alternate save/resistance system