Revamp Archery [Long, Work In Progress]

[Elkan]

A crossbow without a ratchet for drawing the string actually requires a lot more strength to initially draw than a bow would, as the bolt is held under a lot more tension than an arrow. bolts being generally fired in direct lines rather than parabolic arcs, however once you have a crossbow "locked" you no longer need to apply strength to maintain the hold, which an archer would do whilst aiming. Loading a crossbow is a serious physical task though.

[onyhow]

...so make the crossbow in this game use ratchet?

Also, since the power of crossbow does not depend on user's strength at all, I suggest make the damage mod pure dex...(although you can change it if you want...)

[Elkan]

I'd also suggest that as crossbows have very high front loaded base damage compared to bows and slings, crossbow mastery would increase reload/firing speed rather than damage, so that DPS goes up consistently with other ranged weapons, but the alpha strike dosn't get to the point you can one-shot bosses without critting

[Reat]

Crossbows in real life don't need much strength, since all but the smallest would have a mechanical gear attachment to draw the string for you. The largest crossbows had floor mounted ones. A stronger crossbow user would be able to move the gears faster, but it wouldn't increase damage. I also think it would be more interesting if crossbow required a fire/reload combo. Crossbows actually fire faster than a bow or sling since all you have to do is pull the trigger. Maybe have them do 100% dex damage and say 60% attack speed, but have the reload speed depend on your strength. That said, bows use strength ALOT in real life, despite the popular perception.

All that said, I approve any revamp/expansion of ranged classes/weapons, since its my favorite class in any game. You know, if the xbow class would get alchemist-type skills, I'd say it'd be a good idea for sling and bow users to get some interesting skills to. Bow users could get some equilibrium skills, while sling users could get some shadowblade-type magic. I always thought it a bit odd there was no ranger type class in this game.

[Silvermoon]

...so make the crossbow in this game use ratchet?

Also, since the power of crossbow does not depend on user's strength at all, I suggest make the damage mod pure dex...(although you can change it if you want...)

I intended that the 'based on ____' sections be taken as the item's requirements to wield, not necessarily the damage mod (which should be Dex for Crossbows, Dex/Str for Bows, and Dex/Cun for Slings).

[bricks]

Silvermoon, that is a lot of ideas. I'll give it a thorough reading when I'm in a more analytic mood. Here's my short list of desired changes for ranged weapons/archers:

Bows/slings (or just bows) 100% attack speed
Make arrows infinite ("quivers") or just eliminate and move to bow egos
Better differentiate bows and slings (either give slingers options for the off hand or give sling talents to rogues)
Make Volley and Dual Arrows more distinguishable/easier to use/harder to abuse

[TheRani]

I personally hate the idea of having to actively reload a crossbow, and the fact that it's a slower weapon already takes reload times into account, since the slow part certainly isn't the pointing and shooting.

I wouldn't even bother using the tinkering at all if charges are that ridiculously expensive to make. If I want to blow things up with gems, I'll just play an alchemist and skip the crossbow.

I think there's already a Cursed talent called Blindside, so you might want to rename that.
There's also a Disarm talent already.

I'm not sure how I feel about Fade. Bosses with that ability would be pretty scary.

There seem to be ridiculous amounts of melee skills here, considering these are all ranged classes.

Also, there's been a lot of talk about completely removing Ammo from the game, so Phantom Quiver may end up not being helpful.

Phantom Touch seems like it'd be a speed bump on the way to Phantom's Visage and Displaced Figure. I honestly can't see it being helpful. In order for closing doors from a distance to be useful, someone would first have to actually implement the ability to close a door.

Absolute Focus seems like it'd be rather lousy compared to your souped-up version of Aim.
I've had slingers with maxed Aim who critted on almost every single shot, and it Works with their attack talents. If you take out the slowing on Aim, it becomes even more fantastic. So where's the appeal of Absolute Focus?

[Silvermoon]

Addressing recent comments--

Reat:

>>Crossbows in real life don't need much strength, since all but the smallest would have a mechanical gear attachment to draw the string for you.

Though this has been true of the majority of modern crossbows (which haven't changed too much in the last several centuries), it has not always been true, nor is it an absolute rule.


>>Crossbows actually fire faster than a bow or sling since all you have to do is pull the trigger. Maybe have them do 100% dex damage and say 60% attack speed, but have the reload speed depend on your strength. That said, bows use strength ALOT in real life, despite the popular perception.

The slow attack speed on the crossbow is due to the reloading speed, not the firing speed, and the crossbow mastery skill is intended to address the speed as a practiced motion. I have practiced archery is real life, and am well aware of the physical taxation involved, but one thing people often forget is that realism sometimes needs to take a back-seat to gameplay considerations. This is why in most modern FPS games, your health regenerates -- it's not realistic, but it is more fun.


>>You know, if the xbow class would get alchemist-type skills, I'd say it'd be a good idea for sling and bow users to get some interesting skills to. Bow users could get some equilibrium skills, while sling users could get some shadowblade-type magic. I always thought it a bit odd there was no ranger type class in this game.

That is somewhat covered by the Phantom concept, however I am working on a second draft of the original post that includes an Arcane Archer. I fully intend that Archer remains true to the concept of relatively mundane ranged combat, while the other classes have other forms of emphasis.


Rani:

>>I personally hate the idea of having to actively reload a crossbow, and the fact that it's a slower weapon already takes reload times into account, since the slow part certainly isn't the pointing and shooting.

I dislike the idea in general -- I was theorycrafting on implementation if it were put in. I do not feel that the minimal tactical advantages are worth the hassle of implementation, and certainly not worth the hassle of micromanaging it.


>>I wouldn't even bother using the tinkering at all if charges are that ridiculously expensive to make. If I want to blow things up with gems, I'll just play an alchemist and skip the crossbow.

I must reiterate that my concern is not actual balance, but concept. Balance can come when implementation is a bit closer to reality. Having the Stone Alchemy tree wouldn't be too far-fetched, allowing for Extract Gems.


I think there's already a Cursed talent called Blindside, so you might want to rename that.

There's also a Disarm talent already.

I noticed this yesterday. Names are unimportant, really -- that's an easy detail to alter.


>>I'm not sure how I feel about Fade. Bosses with that ability would be pretty scary.

I've not really noticed bosses to stand around doing nothing long enough, generally - though I'm sure it would happen often enough to freak one out. Still, any status effect would reveal them (Sun Infusion, etc.), and it stands to reason they would still show up on ESP (or any other form of magical detection).


There seem to be ridiculous amounts of melee skills here, considering these are all ranged classes.

Most of the melee abilities are limited to slingers -- a ranged class, but as presented, the most inclined to short-range combat. And even then, only in the two trees that start off locked. As I mentioned above, and as was my intention from the beginning, I want each class to actually have a unique style. Simply changing from a bow to a sling only changes the mental image, not how the game is played. Crossbows are heavy, blunt objects, therefore a stunning attack with it makes sense -- it's not intended to do damage, but to buy time to maneuver.


>>Also, there's been a lot of talk about completely removing Ammo from the game, so Phantom Quiver may end up not being helpful.

Phantom Touch seems like it'd be a speed bump on the way to Phantom's Visage and Displaced Figure. I honestly can't see it being helpful. In order for closing doors from a distance to be useful, someone would first have to actually implement the ability to close a door.

I've never tried to close a door, so never even thought about the fact that they can't be. Still, I agree that these abilities aren't very good. However, if you note, that tree is non-linear -- you don't need to take those abilites to use the other abilities in the tree.


>>Absolute Focus seems like it'd be rather lousy compared to your souped-up version of Aim.
I've had slingers with maxed Aim who critted on almost every single shot, and it Works with their attack talents. If you take out the slowing on Aim, it becomes even more fantastic. So where's the appeal of Absolute Focus?

For starters, I propose that attaining critical rates of 100% is bad game design in the first place, as it diminishes the whole concept of a critical strike - critical rates should have a hard cap without skills that explicitly alter that case - but that is neither here nor there. To answer the question directly, the benefit is mobility and not having to care about your base crit rate, possibly opening up a higher damage, lower crit rate weapon.

[Frumple]

For starters, I propose that attaining critical rates of 100% is bad game design in the first place, as it diminishes the whole concept of a critical strike - critical rates should have a hard cap without skills that explicitly alter that case - but that is neither here nor there. To answer the question directly, the benefit is mobility and not having to care about your base crit rate, possibly opening up a higher damage, lower crit rate weapon.

Minor (to the overall discussion) but perhaps scary point on this: It's entirely possible to get very high crit (easily 50% if you're pushing it -- some people get outright 100%) without the crit bonus from their weapon. This tends to be a late game occurrence, but it happens.

Mostly just noting it to point out that, for folks doing that, the second benefit of absolute strikes would be irrelevant, heh. The mobility is a definite and powerful advantage, though.