Why are these two talents separate? The fact is, you already have to make choices that determine which you're focusing more on, since they use different abilities. Forcing people to double-down on that choice and rigidly restrict them to one or the other only serves to make more loot useless to more people, which, I think, is a bad thing -- if a rogue wants to try a particularly appealing non-dagger in his main hand (despite, you know, probably lacking the strength to use it properly, if at all), why not let him?
Some classes -- like Temporal Wardens -- do have reasons to buy both talents, but really, does it improve the game to have them buying two passive talents that do practically the same thing?
EDIT: Hrm, they have different prerequisites, don't they? Bother... is it possible to give a talent a strength or dexterity prerequisite, so either one will satisfy if it's at the appropriate level?
Merge knife and weapon training.
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Merge knife and weapon training.
Last edited by Aquillion on Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Merge dagger and weapon training.
Would bringing down the 10-point talents to 5-point talents be amiss? Ten points just means that the diminishing returns are so bad that the points aren't generally worth it, and generic points are pretty short for these classes, too.
Sorry about all the parentheses (sometimes I like to clarify things).
Re: Merge knife and weapon training.
Daggers aren't swords (or maces or axes), that's why. Very different fighting style. The current system seems to work, and work well.
(1) 10/10 Weapons Mastery (or Knife Mastery)
(2) 5/10 Weapons Mastery, 5/10 Knife Mastery
A weapon attack with (1) will do 28.6% more damage than a weapon attack with (2). This is because of diminishing returns, yet several people choose (1) anyway, because it maxes their damage with a more limited choice of weapons. Approach (2) allows players to be very opportunistic, so they can wield the best weapon drop regardless of weapon type. This is a trade-off, and not an unreasonable one at that.
In the upcoming beta, rogues will be able to have a legit Str build (i.e., no lethality talent substituting Cun for Str for daggers). Hence, rogues, marauders, and temporal wardens are the main classes that will need to choose between daggers and strength-based weapons. Allowing them to easily use both types without trade-offs sounds overpowering to me, and deprives players of an interesting tactical choice. Heh, this is actually being discussed right now for marauders:
http://forums.te4.org//viewtopic.php?f=41&t=28284
Anyway, I think this proposal homogenizes things a bit too much (classes and play-throughs with the same class are supposed to be different), buffs classes that don't need buffed (including fighters), and modifies a core mechanic that appears to play well.
Just my 2?
Um, players aren't forced to do this. They have a choice. If one wants to spend 10 generic points on a weapon mastery, let's consider two options:Aquillion wrote:Forcing people to double-down on that choice and rigidly restrict them to one or the other only serves to make more loot useless to more people, which, I think, is a bad thing
(1) 10/10 Weapons Mastery (or Knife Mastery)
(2) 5/10 Weapons Mastery, 5/10 Knife Mastery
A weapon attack with (1) will do 28.6% more damage than a weapon attack with (2). This is because of diminishing returns, yet several people choose (1) anyway, because it maxes their damage with a more limited choice of weapons. Approach (2) allows players to be very opportunistic, so they can wield the best weapon drop regardless of weapon type. This is a trade-off, and not an unreasonable one at that.
In the upcoming beta, rogues will be able to have a legit Str build (i.e., no lethality talent substituting Cun for Str for daggers). Hence, rogues, marauders, and temporal wardens are the main classes that will need to choose between daggers and strength-based weapons. Allowing them to easily use both types without trade-offs sounds overpowering to me, and deprives players of an interesting tactical choice. Heh, this is actually being discussed right now for marauders:
http://forums.te4.org//viewtopic.php?f=41&t=28284
Anyway, I think this proposal homogenizes things a bit too much (classes and play-throughs with the same class are supposed to be different), buffs classes that don't need buffed (including fighters), and modifies a core mechanic that appears to play well.
Just my 2?
Yup, this is possible. "Technique / Combat Techniques" actually uses the higher of Str or Dex for the prereq.Aquillion wrote:EDIT: Hrm, they have different prerequisites, don't they? Bother... is it possible to give a talent a strength or dexterity prerequisite, so either one will satisfy if it's at the appropriate level?
Re: Merge dagger and weapon training.
Wouldn't mind this. I have literally never put 10/10 into either of those (caveat, insofar as I can rememberbricks wrote:Would bringing down the 10-point talents to 5-point talents be amiss? Ten points just means that the diminishing returns are so bad that the points aren't generally worth it, and generic points are pretty short for these classes, too.
), even with classes that are single-weapon centric and heavy on melee damage. The first point is very seriously the best point by a significant margin and the diminishing returns are very painful. There's almost always something better to spend the points on.Alternately, have certain breakpoints (5/10, 3/6/9, 2/4/6/8/10) give extra bonuses. Something like what fateful aura is supposed to do for curse effects might be interesting -- bonus to ego power of the appropriate weapon. I'm sure plenty of ideas could be generated if there were interest in this direction.
Wouldn't really want to see them merged, though, but it might be interesting to expand the dagger-level category a bit. Maybe just change 'em so it's one and two-handed weapons instead weapon and knife.
Re: Merge knife and weapon training.
I'm with tiger_eye on this.
And speaking as someone who generally agrees with the notion that investing 10 points is a bad idea I have invested 10 points on a character. Making it a five point talent would make taking it to 5/5 a no brainer. If people want to power game their damage to that level (as I wanted to on my rogue), I say we let them with the system as it is. But don't make it the obvious and thus the 'best' choice.
In other words, I really think things are fine the way they are.
And speaking as someone who generally agrees with the notion that investing 10 points is a bad idea I have invested 10 points on a character. Making it a five point talent would make taking it to 5/5 a no brainer. If people want to power game their damage to that level (as I wanted to on my rogue), I say we let them with the system as it is. But don't make it the obvious and thus the 'best' choice.
In other words, I really think things are fine the way they are.