Give resilient bones to ghouls

[Nevuk]

There is currently only a single ghoul winner. There are something like 10-15 skeleton ones.

The subrace has one of the largest disadvantages in the game, with some of the nicest innate advantages in the game. Skeletons have no real disadvantages (aside from having to wear the cloak in town) but better passives and a considerably better racial tree (poison/stun/disease resistance -20% movement speed vs poison/bleed immunity and waterbreathing). The passives are in a fairly nice place, the lowered movespeed results in a ghoul needing to think further ahead - but being able to do so via a massive hp pool. The racial tree for skeleton's is worth 5/5 points in every skill for the majority of classes skeleton is suited for (besides mages and that's just skeleton which can still be good for equipment requirements).

The one ghoul winner (for reference : http://te4.org/characters/1860/tome/220 ... 1cc000edf0 ) did not even level retch, and most classes will not find it particularly useful (also only put 2 generic points past the 5 into ghoul). Many skeletons didn't fully level resiliency either - so it can be moved without effecting a skeleton's endgame power too tremendously.

Even outside of balance (which isn't really a large concern, I'm aware), I think resilient bones just fits Ghouls better than it does a Skeleton. It's useful for every class (45% reduction of duration on negative effects is huge), but is especially useful for the classes a ghoul tends to be. It can help to make up for their lowered speed.


Here's an alternative : Ghoulish Body - a passive that removes all negative effects after taking 700/650/600/550/500 damage in a limited time (3/4/5/6/7 turns) on a lengthy cooldown (something like 500 turns, numbers definitely need tweaking here because 700 is likely too much. It could also be % max life, which would be harder to balance for any specific point in the game but easier to balance overall).

I'm basically suggesting implementing this or resilient bones over gnaw or retch. Retch may be better in b32 with necromancers (not sure of the synergy there), but gnaw has very low damage and was implemented when stuns were considerably stronger. I don't really have any ideas for what to replace resilient bones with if it is moved.

[Aquillion]

I would rather not see anything taken away from skeletons, since they seem to work -- they're not overpowered or anything. And even if not everyone took it, resilient bones is still pretty important to them due to the lack of a wild infusion, especially if they don't get Providence (which is probably the reason why some people didn't take it -- but which you can't be certain you'll be able to learn.)

I think the ghoul talents need to be buffed, and they need a way to remove status effects (perhaps Retch should remove a negative status effect from you each turn, and maybe even a positive one from the enemy? Though, it suffers from being counterproductive against enemy undead -- perhaps it should just be damage enemies / heal friendly, even if that's a bit hard to justify.)

Perhaps also scale retch's duration with Con, and make its cooldown scale down with talent level, with the idea that a ghoul with high con and maxed retch could keep it up 24-7 during a fight. I mean, given all of a ghoul's disadvantages, it's fine for their talents to be a bit overpowered -- this talent is supposed to make up for not having any infusions and for the slowed movement. It doesn't have to perfectly balance out, I know, but it should leave the class fun to play.

For gnaw, there are a few options. It could actually inflict daze instead of stun (which was how it was originally meant to be), or it could heal you. Or it could inflict other negative effects on the enemy, like disease.

But don't take Resilient Bones away from skeletons; it is important for them, even if they can sometimes replace it with Providence.

[Zonk]

I think the real issue is that a -20% speed penalty is simply HUGE. Perhaps there could be a talent which, when maxed out, removes that penalty?

Yeah, I get it that ghouls have a lot of significant benefits and resistances, but is that really worth skipping a significant amount of turns?

[Aquillion]

I think the real issue is that a -20% speed penalty is simply HUGE. Perhaps there could be a talent which, when maxed out, removes that penalty?

Yeah, I get it that ghouls have a lot of significant benefits and resistances, but is that really worth skipping a significant amount of turns?

The problem is that that's the basic point of the ghoul, right now.

[bricks]

The problem I see with Ghouls is that they just aren't very well suited to any class. Sure, str/con are really valuable to some, but the dedicated str/con classes suffer horrifically from lack of infusions and the global speed penalty, and they don't really have anything to invest in other than str/con (except willpower, which Ghouls get a penalty to :/).

I tried a Ghoul Reaver, thinking it would be really fun and flavorful. It went well for a while, but as I approached Dreadfell I quickly realized that any healing I was capable of was also going to heal 99% of the foes in the zone. I don't know I'd ever play Ghoul again without a reliable, class-based source of healing or damage mitigation, which is actually pretty hard to find. Ghoul Arcane Blade, maybe?

Quick thoughts on the various talents:
Ghoul: Very bland; probably only useful much later in the game or if you don't have many places to spend generic points.
Ghoulish Leap: Potentially the greatest skill the Ghoul has to offer, and very appropriate.
Retch: It's a really interesting skill, though it doesn't even begin to compare to Skeleton's shield and heal. I think it should only heal the user and damage all others (possible exception for allies). Additionally, it could increase the player's global speed while in the effect (perhaps to levels above unity, maybe up to 140% when fully invested? Seems like a lot, but the area and duration would be very limited.).
Gnaw: Ugh. Stun is nice, but this seems extremely underwhelming for a racial talent. A lifesteal component would make it phenomenal.

Quick thoughts on the innates:
XP penalty: I've actually grown to like the XP penalty, since it means I don't get ganked by the Crypt of Kryl'Feijan while I'm prepping for Dreadfell. It's not a big deal.
Various resistances: Really awesome. Granted, fear/cut immunity aren't very important, but poison and stun resistance are.
Global Speed penalty: Yeah, this is an issue. My suggestion above for Retch would probably go a long way to addressing this.
No infusions: Sucks, much more so than it does for Skeletons. One healing ability is just not enough, even with the ridiculous health that Ghouls get. Suggested change to gnaw would be a big improvement.

[tiger_eye]

Really? You would consider replacing Retch to make ghouls better? Retch is one of the most insanely good talents in the game. It doesn't need buffed or replaced.

Skeletons are four times more likely to be played than ghouls (and are a little overpowered if the class they play as has generic points to spare). I think the speed penalty scares players away from ghouls. It's really not that bad, though; you just need to be careful around overpowered enemies and mobs.

Anyway, two suggestions that have been discussed before is making Gnaw better (maybe make it instant cast) and incorporate diseases or disease resistance into the class in some way:

http://forums.te4.org//viewtopic.php?f=39&t=27882
http://forums.te4.org//viewtopic.php?f=39&t=26323

Another idea that would be more thematic and make the class more interesting would be to replace Gnaw with a taint talent that lets them use a variety of taints in inscription slots instead of runes. This idea needs fleshed out, though.

[Aquillion]

tiger_eye: While retch is in theory a good talent, remember that it has to replace all the healing the race has -- absolutely everything they'd get from infusions. Its long cooldown means it's not able to do that, and it doesn't help with status effects at all (while skeletons get two powerful talents to deal with damage, and one for status effects.)

On top of that, it backfires against undead, and there are a lot of undead enemies (including one non-skippable undead-focused zone with a fairly difficult undead boss, who summons more undead, all of whom will get healed if you use retch. And again, outside of a few limited and unreliable quest reward talents, this is the only healing you're ever going to get in many classes, period, so it can't just be a 'situational' power.)

Although Ghoulish Leap is already good, perhaps it could boost your movement speed by 20% (to 100%) for a few turns after using it?

Also, perhaps gnaw could be given a rush component? (Though it should still work at close range, of course.) This would help their mobility issues a lot, especially combined with the speed boost in the retch area.

[Frumple]

Maybe just have ghouls get a flat 20% reduction to all temporary durations, or have it so as a innate part of the race positive durations are increased by 20% and negatives reduced by the same? I'd be pretty interested in either of those, I think. The first is different enough from resilient bones to not step on toes, but the latter would perhaps need to give RB a lil'boost to be fair -- maybe a lil'armor or hardiness or something.

Constant-up retch is a terrible idea, though, unless the heal portion was knocked back down to worse-talent-in-game-contender levels. This is because a capped healmod ghoul can easily get >300 hp per turn healed by the talent, on top of everything else they do to heal. That's a little ridiculous all by itself. Having that up 24/7 is even more ridiculous. Its duration, especially 5/5'd, is long enough to last most fights in the game. The effect being stationary is an issue, but most of the ghouls I've ran finds that everything dies before retch runs out. Sometimes actually due to retch. The healing-undead thing is an issue, but if you can't damage the stuff it's healing faster than it heals (remember, enemies don't tend to get much in the way of healmod!), you've got bigger problems.

Anywaaay. Ghouls are suited to most classes well enough -- it's not actually the str/con that's the benefit (though it's nice), it's their HP progress and leap/retch that you look at. Ghoulish leap is one of the better mobility talents in the game, and ghouls have the best hp/level in the game. Classes that can take advantage of one or both are the ones suited to ghoul. They actually make really good mages Same for shadowblades, once essence gets going.

Finally, retch definitely does not replace all healing that ghouls do. It replaces healing and regeneration infusions. It doesn't get in the way of natural regen, talent based healing, or item based healing. They also have shields, of course. Gnaw needs some work to be attractive, but the rest of their talents are fine.

[Zonk]

On the whole speed issue...This more of a flavor/thematic thing but:

Anyone else feels that it's weird that such a slow race has no Dex penalty and a pretty powerful movement/attack talent?
Ghouls are very slow, except when they're not and they leap around?

Are they perhaps meant to be slow and shuffle/lurch most of the time(I usually think of ghouls as Maj'Eyal ghouls as very zombie-like, though intelligent) but capable of short bursts of speed when going for the kill?

If that is the case....what if the speed penalty was no longer global but only applied to movement? Ghouls would get to perform non-movement actions at normal speed.

[edge2054]

Gnaw needs some work to be attractive, but the rest of their talents are fine.

Gnaw is pretty much the only ghoul talent I'd skip. Leap I may or may not put more then one point in (it's a great talent at just one point so if I have better spots for generics it might not get any for awhile).

Now that the health talent is gone maybe gnaw could be replaced with something like the new Blurred Mortality talent (except passive). Basically give ghouls back the 200 health they're losing by not picking up the health talent (the extra con made this an easy choice for generics on pretty much every ghoul) by letting them fight on past 0 hit points.

Another option, though maybe less thematic considering how slow ghouls currently are, is to drop the stun from gnaw and add a frenzy effect (global speed boost, crit increase, and die_at for however many turns).

[Nevuk]

Maybe just have ghouls get a flat 20% reduction to all temporary durations, or have it so as a innate part of the race positive durations are increased by 20% and negatives reduced by the same? I'd be pretty interested in either of those, I think. The first is different enough from resilient bones to not step on toes, but the latter would perhaps need to give RB a lil'boost to be fair -- maybe a lil'armor or hardiness or something.

Constant-up retch is a terrible idea, though, unless the heal portion was knocked back down to worse-talent-in-game-contender levels. This is because a capped healmod ghoul can easily get >300 hp per turn healed by the talent, on top of everything else they do to heal. That's a little ridiculous all by itself. Having that up 24/7 is even more ridiculous. Its duration, especially 5/5'd, is long enough to last most fights in the game. The effect being stationary is an issue, but most of the ghouls I've ran finds that everything dies before retch runs out. Sometimes actually due to retch. The healing-undead thing is an issue, but if you can't damage the stuff it's healing faster than it heals (remember, enemies don't tend to get much in the way of healmod!), you've got bigger problems.

Anywaaay. Ghouls are suited to most classes well enough -- it's not actually the str/con that's the benefit (though it's nice), it's their HP progress and leap/retch that you look at. Ghoulish leap is one of the better mobility talents in the game, and ghouls have the best hp/level in the game. Classes that can take advantage of one or both are the ones suited to ghoul. They actually make really good mages Same for shadowblades, once essence gets going.

Finally, retch definitely does not replace all healing that ghouls do. It replaces healing and regeneration infusions. It doesn't get in the way of natural regen, talent based healing, or item based healing. They also have shields, of course. Gnaw needs some work to be attractive, but the rest of their talents are fine.

This is good to know, I've never really been able to get a ghoul to survive through reknor so I have limited experience with retch in the endgame. I agree they work well for most classes (I've tried alchemists/archmages with moderate success).

The more I thought about it even when making the OP the more sense it made to replace gnaw rather than retch. (I originally had replacing gnaw a less likely thing than replacing retch). I really think gnaw is a holdover talent from when stuns were more of a true disable and it could last for a long time, making up for the very low damage.

Retch suffers coming into the game fairly late and having somewhat unexplained scaling, but is clearly still a useful skill. For what is basically a regen rune that does mild-moderate aoe damage in comes in the game a little late. Would switching its position with gnaw be too powerful?

(And then replacing gnaw with a talent more fitted for a 4th tier racial. The point about healing mods working with retch was making me think about other possible talents - Perhaps one that increases their healing mod cap? The innate speed penalty should prevent a ghoul from ever being too powerful, even if it heals at absurd rates. It could even be a non-passive talent activated after succesfully gnawing on a target)

[Sirrocco]

I'm not certain this is a particularly *good* idea, but... For amusement/thematic value, why not have retch purge a negative effect when used? I just like the image of vomiting up a disease or a poison effect or a hex or whatnot. Possibly make that the last talent. Passive: When you retch, you purge (talent level) negative effects from your system, and every enemy in the area of effect has (talent level and con-dependent)% chance to be affected by those negative effects. Makes the whole thing that much more tactical.

[Goblinz]

Or the amount of damage dealt by retch could increase depending on the number of effects

[Sirrocco]

Also... well, it's downright *odd*, is what it is. Think for a moment.

"So... why again is it that ghouls are cool?"
"Oh, they can vomit on themselves for tremendous healing."

It doesn't really make sense, does it? I'm a bit leery of changing the one thing that works, but I feel like ghouls should get their creepy healing powers from consuming the flesh of their enemies (possibly via a passive) and save vomiting for effect purge, effect infliction, and mild damage dealing.

[Frumple]

"So... why again is it that ghouls are cool?"
"Oh, they can vomit on themselves for tremendous healing, they have massive HP, and one of the better movement talents in the game. Also, 50% stun resistance, yesplease."

Fixed a bit

It makes a bit more sense when you look at it that way, heh.