Wands and Rods: your ideas of what is needed

[darkgod]

All dialgos in beta12 will have scrollbars, and I'm seeing if I can refit the inventory dialog for beta12

[teachu2die]

love the wand of smoke! there needs to be more means of LOS disruption in general (maybe rogues could get even some kidn of smoke-bomb ability)... also the lasso, swapping, hatred, and thirst ones sound very good to me, too.
im not sure exactly what is planned as far as wands and rods, but i think the key to wand balance is just to keep charges reasonably low, recharging somewhat likely to destroy the wand (maybe you get a refund if the recharger blows it up ), and the powers different (and generally slightly weaker) than regular spells and abilities. rods just need appropriately long recharge times.... i also think power and success rate should definitely scale with magic....

[Feanor.81]

i also think power and success rate should definitely scale with magic.

Uhm, my opinion is that this way you are creating objects that become really powerful only for a limited set of classes, the ones which need them the least (mages and such have already access to a powerful set of spells).

Maybe we could use a general (cun based) talent tree which teaches the character how to better handle rods and wands? It's tradition that cun based builds learn how to handle magic devices, and this could open new ways to experiment with rogues and wilders (and give them some means of dealing damage from distance, which they somewhat lack).
I was thinking to something like:
Cunning / Magic Devices

• Device Mastery - improves power of rods and wands based upon TL
• Device Recharge - gives the ability to recharge an item (at a cost, maybe each wand/rod has an associated gem), the level of the rod/wand you're able to recharge depends on TL
• Device Repair - allows to repair broken wands/rods, again their level depends on TL, and i would make it possible to find wands/rods already broken in the world, especially if they are really good.
• Device Crafting - allows to build a rod/wand out of some ingredient; maybe we could have neuter rods/wands in the game, and a good amount of gems or something alike would be needed to define what the resulting rod/wand will be; there could be recipes scattered through the world, something like: a platinum rod "of nothing", 2 diamonds, 2 pearls, 3 onyxes = rod of armageddon (Item Level 5); obviously you need to have the correct recipe listed in the lore menu to have access to that kind of wand/rod.

[Final Master]

I really think that outside of the VERY basic of basic spells (as in level 1 non specialist talents) should be direct into wands and then have the rest of the effects be completely unique to the wands. I think someone had mentioned that rods should be maces and I completely agree. Maces I feel are really just weaker swords and without very unique abilities, they will always fall by the wayside except in RP cases (the same with axes actually... knives and swords are by far the best weapons so far). Staffs have their own sort of magic in my mind, and that is in boosting what magic you can already cast and in the fact that they each do a certain damage type when used in melee. I love that. Maces (and all weapons for that matter), I believe should get unique flags that only that weapon type can have.

Perhaps something like

of Smiting
Deals 'x' multiplier damage against undead

of Smashing
Activates for "Smash" with duration 'x' and radius '1' from melee target, friendly_fire=false

Weighted
Increase damage range by 'x' (large) reduce weapon speed by 'y' (small)

Blessed
Activates for "Blessed" with duration 'x' - add 'y' to attack, damage and mental resist

of Flames
Activates for Flame

of Rock
Activates for Stone Skin

of Lightning
Activates for Lightning

of Illumination
Activates for Illumination (level 3 minimum)

of Corrosion
Activates for Corrosive Vapors

These should not auto recharge, though I don't think that they should disappear when the charges are used, seeing as how they are still a viable weapon. Allow the various shops that recharge jewelry, recharge these as well. Rods however I believe SHOULD follow the example of the current rod in the game, and have a spell like effect that is similar to current spells but not an exact replicate, and they should auto recharge. They should also be very rare, and probably not include too many attacks.

I kinda spaced out here so ... sorry if I sort of confused someone or anything. I'm kinda confused myself...

[edge2054]

Cunning / Magic Devices

• Device Mastery - improves power of rods and wands based upon TL
• Device Recharge - gives the ability to recharge an item (at a cost, maybe each wand/rod has an associated gem), the level of the rod/wand you're able to recharge depends on TL
• Device Repair - allows to repair broken wands/rods, again their level depends on TL, and i would make it possible to find wands/rods already broken in the world, especially if they are really good.
• Device Crafting - allows to build a rod/wand out of some ingredient; maybe we could have neuter rods/wands in the game, and a good amount of gems or something alike would be needed to define what the resulting rod/wand will be; there could be recipes scattered through the world, something like: a platinum rod "of nothing", 2 diamonds, 2 pearls, 3 onyxes = rod of armageddon (Item Level 5); obviously you need to have the correct recipe listed in the lore menu to have access to that kind of wand/rod.

I agree something like this would be nice. I've suggested a talent that does a % of cunning as magic for device activation called Use Magic Device.

Some of the talents in this tree feel more like an alchemist thing then a rogue thing.

[Charlatan73]

definitely like the skill tree for improving effectiveness of devices. Seems to be though it might be more magic than cunning. One would think folks like Alchemists (Dex/Magic) might have access to this tree at the start...

Agree cunning might be an interesting factor into the mix though. Perhaps something in the default device effectiveness equation?

[Final Master]

Maybe sticky this one too, as it's an actual request for more help. Also, now that we see how they are being designed, we can give a better description of what they will be. I think all these massive cover idea threads should be sticked...

Edit: Thank you!

[teachu2die]

brainstorming some more ideas for a generic wand/rod/(glyph/rune?) mastery tree.

magic device mastery - increases power of devices by 8% per talent level. (would also decrease failure rates if something like that was implemented)
magic device protection - protects devices in your pack from destruction (18% save per talent level). additionally grants a 1.5% (or less?) chance per talent level of not consuming a charge when the item is used.
recharge - attempts to recharge a device at a cost of 10-TL x 1.5 HP, a permanent loss. success rate depends on the level of the item and increases with talent level (no HP is lost in the case of failure).
power surge - a device is used at 50% additional power per talent level, and is destroyed. at TL 3, this can be used with items that have zero charges (or are recharging).

[Postman]

Make recharge ("tinkering") first talent but only use runes/infusions with the same function. At lvl 3 wand of the same function can be used to charge(with some charge loss). Result depend on dexterity. At lvl 5 any rune/infusion /wand can charge any wand.
Second talent - consume wand and get resistance bonus from it's function(light- blindness resist etc) Number of charges=number of turns.

[hamrkveldulfr]

How about a rod of domination? like the yeek's dominate mind but it does not kill the target after the effects wear off.
to balance it's effects i think it would have to have a very long charge time though.

[Nemesis1]

I actually think loads of rods and wands would take away some uniqueness from ToME4 and make it more Angband-y again. The delicate balance of five inscriptions is one of the distinctive aspects of ToME4 to me, at least. Also, ToME4 is much more generous with inventory/storage space than any other roguelike, and a lot of wands and rods would either make the game too easy, or too hard unless you scum for the right set of wands. It wouldn't be too fun if you had to scum (in the far portal now when monsters no longer respawn, I guess) for an "ascension kit"/"Morgoth kit".

However, here's an idea for a wand anyway:

Wand of Wishing - lets you choose between an artifact, a category point, some stat, class or generic points, some permanent passive ability, a construct/djinn companion(?), etc.

I guess that could lead to a lot of flexibility if you're lucky enough to find it, and players being unable to make up their mind on what they want, dying before they get to use it.

[Tom]

Wand of Good Weather:
Removes fog for a number of moves.

[Grey]

You can go into your settings to do that :)

[Tom]

You can go into your settings to do that

Oh. Sounds like cheating to me, but ok.
Thx for the tip.

[Grey]

The fog is only there for graphical effect, so you can simply turn it off. I'm pretty sure that nothing under "video options" counts as cheating ;)