b26 Experiences

[Tom]

Hello!

I downloaded b26 yesterday and dropped b25.
Had a promising game (for me) going, but it always feels a bit bad to play older versions.
So I started a new fresh rogue and entered the Trollmire.

Apart from the bug I encountered in Bills lair, b26 was very different from b24 and b25 I played before.
New techniques are recuired and the game is quite different.

So far I did not do very well at all with my rogue.

In b25 I developed a tactic in Bills lair that was sucessful.
Either with phase door, or two health regenerations coupled with stun.
Alas, now Im stuck in this corridor without phase door and the game crashes if I must leave.
This mainly because stun is a lot weaker now than it used to be.
So Bill is a no no without phase door.

Ok, this is acceptable.
There is always the possibility to return if I find a phase door in the Shade's ruins.
But if I do not take Bill first, Im only at lvl 6 and that is a bit low.
It is manageble, with careful play, but it is hard. IMO unnecessary hard.

But the Shade is awfully hard.
Not because of him alone perhaps, but the three times I tried to take him, he was surrounded by 3 skeletons (including a mage) and if he ice me I'm done, if I have them on my tail as well.
So at lvl 6 or 8 (depending on phase door) he simply is on the tough side for my hobbit rogue atm.
And there are no NPCs to raise lvl with.

Frankly I do not like the no regenerating NPCs at all.
It is not rougelike, as in rougelikes NPCs do recover.
I admit it was a bit cheesy to redo some dungeons to look for new items and artifacts, but if that is the aim with this new 'no recovery' change, I'd suggest to get NPC recovery back, but stop item regeneration.
The new spawned NPCs should have itemdrop in the normal way.

Tom

[Dervis]

I don't agree with most of this, however there is clearly a need for more items at the moment so there should be an increase in item spawned in dungeons/dropped by monsters. I'm +/- fine with the static dungeons to be honest.

[Grey]

I don't see the need for extra items or NPCs - there are plenty of both. If you don't feel ready for the Shade then go to the Scintillating Caves to the south-west, or try out Norgos's Lair in the east. Both have bosses which are easier than Bill, and they'll easily bump you up a few levels.

[Wombat]

In my brief experience yesterday with b26, it seems to me that the amount of items is fine.

The Shade is significantly harder though. In the brief time I played, I tried with two L7 brawlers (both completed the Trollmire, minus Bill) and found that once he freezes you it's all over. I was unable to break out of the ice fast enough and the cooldown on his freeze was short enough to freeze me again before I could really do much damage.

Prior to this, the Shade was a piece of cake (unless you're careless). The combination of the freezes and the changes to stun (he can still act, and therefore freeze you) make it a tough battle for new characters.

[Tom]

I don't see the need for extra items or NPCs - there are plenty of both. If you don't feel ready for the Shade then go to the Scintillating Caves to the south-west, or try out Norgos's Lair in the east. Both have bosses which are easier than Bill, and they'll easily bump you up a few levels.

Scintillating caves????

Oh, I'm an ex ADOM player.
When I saw the Scintillating caves here I did not even dare to enter as I thought this must be a quick death.
The Scintillating cave is one of the most dangerous caves in ADOM with the emperor Moloch at the bottom.

Thx for the advice!!!
Ill add this cave to my TODO list.

Tom

[Grey]

Heh, it's thankfully a different cave than ADOM's. It's actually the starting zone for Shaloren characters, so is designed for level 1 chars. After Trollmire it'll seem easy, but you'll at least find some loot and get some xp for the boss. Same for Norgos' Lair (the Thaloren starting zone). The Heart of the Gloom is an easy enough dungeon as well (Thaloren second zone), but beware of the Rhaloren camp (Shaloren second zone) as it can be tough (I'd do all other low level dungeons before it).

[Tom]

Heh, it's thankfully a different cave than ADOM's. It's actually the starting zone for Shaloren characters, so is designed for level 1 chars. After Trollmire it'll seem easy, but you'll at least find some loot and get some xp for the boss. Same for Norgos' Lair (the Thaloren starting zone). The Heart of the Gloom is an easy enough dungeon as well (Thaloren second zone), but beware of the Rhaloren camp (Shaloren second zone) as it can be tough (I'd do all other low level dungeons before it).

Thx a lot for this advice.
I thought about asking about this but thought it was perhaps spoily.
Actually I also thought the quest line should be the right line to follow when it came to caves.

I have almost only played hobbit so I didnt even think there are different start zones, but when I think of it I tried an elven mage somewhere else.

So far I always did
Troll
Shade
Old Forest
Maze
Sandworm
Derth
Peak
Daikara
Dreadfall
and one game I managed to clear the way down and then East.
Second orc encounter was one encounter to many.

Theese caves are given as tasks.
One idea could be to give the other caves as tasks too.
Maybe for experienced players who tried all races etc etc there are a lot more caves to find items in, and kill for xp.
Perhaps one should test more than I did to get the grip.

But for beginners as myself, this was not obvious, even if I admit one could, or even should perhaps, explore a bit more than I did.

Tom

[lukep]

One of my most recent (b25) characters would not have been able to do anything (literally) with a certain quest reward had he not been able to scum Dreadfell for his first nonmagical Amulet, and found a Voratun one on the third or fourth try. I support NPC and item respawning, but have yet to try the new mechanism that allows infinite enemies/zones.

[Grey]

If something in the game requires scumming then one must find more inventive solutions than offering scum on a plate.

[Grey]

Just thought, one possible solution for the ingredients would be a forced respawn of all dungeons after returning from the East. Certainly in the dungeons with new bosses this would be desired, and for the other dungeons it would provide a way of getting access to some missing ingredients. Doesn't offer any scumming opportunities (they'll be low level with poor drops) and solves the ingredients problem.

[faustgeist]

I really like NPC / item respawning... perhaps it can be limited to certain places like the Elvish ruins? Some of the best times I've had are trying to survive that instance with lv 20 characters of all classes... scary, hard, rewarding... and infinite. Until now.

Needless to say, I respect those who do not want respawning... wouldn't a simple solution be a switch at character generation? Yes/No... now go have fun!

2 cents,
~Robin

[darkgod]

An option at birth opens the door to an other, and then an other and an other and an other.
It's the door open to open doors, and then you need to fill in 76 options before even starting a new char

But as I said, I'm just trying things out there, see how it goes, you are like my test subjects!

[Sradac]

I for one like the no respawning. It makes the game play a lot faster, and going through areas you've already been is a lot easier. Its really not necesarry, I think people need to just get better tactics. I see people online talk about how they dont do the old forest or anyplace else until clearing ALL of the starting areas and getting to level 12-15. I just think..really?? Im usually around level 9 when I take out wrathroot and dont have any problems at all unless im trying a new build and its not working out well.

Who's to say what's "roguelike" anywas? Having multiple lives was the biggest "zOMG TIS GAME ISNT THE ROGUELIEK! YOU GOT MANY LIFES, CALL WAAHMBULANCE!" things for the longest. No respawns? So what, its bad enough you get 10 lives if you STILL cant play a successful character with those and have to be 10 levels higher than the dungeons danger level, work on your tactics. Nothings more annoying being in the bottom of a dungeon waiting to go to the next level and respawns keep interrupting your rest since you have no way to recall, rest, then recall back to that level.

Plus its a touch closer to realism. If I clear 4 levels of a dungeon, go back up 1 level, and theres monsters running around there again...where the HECK did they come from other than "poof" out of mid air? I slaughtered this place, I checked every corner, opened every door, even dug and found some hidden rooms. Yer telling me I somehow missed that orc archer? I think not!

[edge2054]

I'm one of the people that do OF pretty late but that's because of what comes after and not wanting to make two trips

I used to do OF first back before trash mob xp got changed.

Anyway I'm not a big fan of no respawns but I'm not a fan of full respawns either. Maybe something in between could work, like a respawn counter that halved the number of respawns everytime it went up and stopped at the fourth or fifth respawn.

The thing I don't like about zero respawns is sometimes you just get shafted on gear and with limited shops restocking and zero respawns the game feels like it's moving towards a point where randomized loot can potentially screw a character over.

[faustgeist]

So I am a mouse in 'ze maze, eh? Alright... lets do this!!

Hmm, I see your point, character generation should be smooth and focused. Perhaps what I had in mind was the customization menu games like Zangband and TKangband had... where game play features could be turned on and off.. such as running past stairs, running around known corners, scumming for better levels, et all...

*Not* saying we need all of these features, but suggesting that is where some of these options could live.. not in character creation.

Cheers,
~Robin

An option at birth opens the door to an other, and then an other and an other and an other.
It's the door open to open doors, and then you need to fill in 76 options before even starting a new char

But as I said, I'm just trying things out there, see how it goes, you are like my test subjects!