[New Idea/Proposal]Achievement Points (mild spoilers!)

[haenlomal]

Hi all,

The following is an idea to make Achievements a little bit more than the bragging rights they currently are.

Create a new measurement called Achievement Points -- APs for short. APs obey the following "rules":

1. Each achievement in the main ToME module is worth 1 to 2 APs, depending on the difficulty of getting the achievement.
2. All Infinite Dungeon related achievements, except for the first two, are worth 3 APs each. The first two Infinite Dungeon achievements are worth 2 APs each. Infinite Dungeon APs are classified as Local APs (see below for more details).
3. Arena related achievements are worth 2 to 3 APs, with a mix of Global and Local APs.
4. APs are sub-divided between Normal and Insane APs. Insane APs are assigned to the Insane equivalent of normal achievements, and are worth 1.5 times their Normal equivalent.
5. APs are further sub-divided into Local and Global APs. Local APs do not carry over to different games by the same player, and must be newly obtained from game to game. Global APs, by contrast, are awarded when the player first gets them, and from that point forward are immediately available to players starting a new game. Generally speaking Global APs are attached to Achievements that can only be obtained once over multiple games (such as the Reaver achievement), obtained on the player's death (such as the Impossible Death achievement), or obtained on a game ending condition (such as the Evil Denied achievement).
6. The amount of Global APs available to the player is set at the very beginning of each new game, based on the number of Global APs earned during previous games. The only way to increase the available number of Global APs is to obtain an achievement associated with Global APs during a particular game. In this case, the Global APs are awarded immediately in the game, and will be available to the player at the start of subsequent new games.
7. APs are only awarded in Roguelike or Insane mode gaming, though Global APs (once obtained) can be applied to new games started in lower difficulty settings.
8. In the event the player has both the Global Normal and Global Insane version of the same set of APs, the Global Insane version of APs shall apply.
9. APs can be redeemed anytime during the game for the following benefits:
   • +10 Max Hitpoints - 1 AP
   • +5 Max Stamina - 2 APs
   • +5 Max Mana (or mana equivalent) - 3 APs
   • +1 Stat point - 5 APs
   • +1 Armor/Defence point - 7 APs
   • +1 Generic Talent point - 10 APs
   • +1 Class Talent Point - 15 APs
   • +1 Category point - 20 APs
10. Once redeemed, APs cannot be "unredeemed" - redemption is permanent. The only exception are Global APs, and even then, these are regenerated only at the beginning of a new game.

Please see the attached file (mild spoiler warning!) for a tentative list of how much AP each achievement is worth. Comments are welcomed, especially about the APs assigned to each Achievement, the nature and classification of the APs themselves, and the APs redemption schedule.

Cheers,

-- The Haen.

[tiger_eye]

I agree in sentiment, but not in implementation. When I first began playing ToME, it did strike me as odd--and nearly worthless--that achievements (which aren't unlocks) were for bragging rights and nothing more. This was idea #15 in my original post: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=24827 (note that nearly all the reasonable points have since been addressed).

From a cursory look, the achievement point system you suggest does seem reasonable. However, I don't like your reward system: it reeks of meta-gaming (which I am vehemently against), it favors ToME veterans and pros, and it makes ToME more confusing for beginners.

It is not my style to criticize and not offer suggestions in return, so below are ideas to make achievements meaningful and done in ways that don't allow meta-gaming and are friendly to new users. Gaining Achievement Points can:

(1) Unlock certain artifacts (or egos)

(2) Unlock advanced materials, such as suggestions from here: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?p=95489

(3) Reduce the rarity of certain artifacts (or egos)

(4) Unlock optional quests and zones. For example, the Kryl-Feijan zone (i.e., Melinda quest) is definitely not for beginners. Other possible zones include the Hidden Compound, Elven Ruins, Golem Graveyard, etc.

(5) Unlock additional "random" bosses (who says the achievement rewards need to be good? )

(6) Unlock the alchemist quest alchemists one by one

(7) Unlock the most challenging (and most rewarding) vaults

and so on.

The design principles would be to protect beginners from the most confusing and challenging elements from ToME, which was similarly done for the class and race unlocks. Unlocking extra, non-essential game content will give a better sense of achievement when you gain an "Achievement", and it enhances the replayability of ToME. Optional zones and quests should generally be the first things to unlock when gaining Achievement Points, and advanced artifacts and such would be unlocked later. For example, I bet many veterans would gain a lot of Achievement Points in order to unlock and then reduce the rarity of the ancient tome for Limmir's gem quest (as well as vanilla voratun amulets and rings)

[haenlomal]

From a cursory look, the achievement point system you suggest does seem reasonable. However, I don't like your reward system: it reeks of meta-gaming (which I am vehemently against), it favors ToME veterans and pros, and it makes ToME more confusing for beginners.

Thanks for your comments, tiger-eye. Especially for your counter-proposal(s). I'll think about it some more, but for now I'll make four comments/observations:

1. As far as meta-gaming is concerned, I see your point, but I think by definition any sort of Achievement system is a form of meta-gaming. Though I'll admit that some Achievement systems are more blatant about it than others (Yes, I'm referring to most XBOX 360 games. ). Either way, I feel that the barn door in that regard is wide open and the horses have fled.
   
   Besides, meta-gaming is really only an issue in a multi-user and role-playing environment, where it has a direct impact on individual players' ability to effectively role-play. In a single player game, since the player is the change agent, he or she has total control over whether to meta-game or not.
2. I really don't see how my proposal makes it more confusing for beginners. I'm not a veteran or pro myself: I'm an occasional player at best, and I started only a couple months ago, and have never made it past the starting zones. Achievement points are a really simple concept at its heart: you earn points for achieving certain milestones in the game, which you can redeem in some fashion to make your character better. Some of those points are available at the start of a new game (since gaining the related achievements generally mean player death and/or the end of the game.)
3. I see nothing wrong with the system favouring veterans and pros of the game. Why not? They are the one that have stuck around and played the game for hours. Veterans and pros should be rewarded for this, and it gives them incentive to play more aggressively. Taking your Kryl-Feijan example, I understand from reading the forums that due to its difficulty, many players don't even bother trying to save Melinda. The presence of Achievement Points may make the players a bit more motivated to find more creative ways to rescue her. But then again, maybe not.
   
   Besides, it makes sense in the game universe. If the player has gained lots of Achievement Points, then his character has travel more and gained more experience from it. As a result, that character should be a bit stronger.
4. I like your suggestions of rewards for achievement points. It can easily be integrated with what I had proposed in my post. What did you envision the redemption schedule for your reward should be like?

Cheers,

-- The Haen.

[Grey]

Some achievements are negative - it seems weird to reward them. Others are more exclusive to certain classes.

I'm against the meta gaming aspect myself. I can take character advancements through monster slaying and certain quests, but it seems weird to get a bonus for causes x damage in one attack or reaching char level y. Rewards should be for in-game things. I'm not wholly against the idea of unlocks though.