I accidentally put a point in Survival without noticing, then hit esc to go back to the stat point allocation. Now I can't remove my purchase of that talent tree. This is utter bullshit.
For -'s sake, will you just allow respec already? Now I've put in a few hours on a level 22 character and I'm debating starting over because of the stupid point buy behavior. I would sure have loved to put that point into something that would help me stay alive.
Another reason we need respec
Moderator: Moderator
Re: Another reason we need respec
Like it or lump it. I don't want respec in this game, nor does a fair amount of the game's population. The points as to why have been made previously, you've seen them before, as have most folks that have chimed in on the discussion. Better to make it so no point can be truly wasted than allow full talent point reallocation. Respec just means more meta-game character building, where you heavily (over) invest in early-game useful abilities and then turn around and ditch them in the end game. That's not a pleasant scenario.
Improvements might be made to the talent screen -- I've mis-allocated a few points in my time, too -- but the fault in this case is yours, not the game, and the implementation of re-specialization certainly isn't the solution. Incautious action doesn't have terribly much place in a roguelike, yeah, but GUI complaints are legitimate. Perhaps a confirmation when leaving the screen after cat point investment? That would be a considerably less extreme adjustment and still manage to prevent your current grievance.
Improvements might be made to the talent screen -- I've mis-allocated a few points in my time, too -- but the fault in this case is yours, not the game, and the implementation of re-specialization certainly isn't the solution. Incautious action doesn't have terribly much place in a roguelike, yeah, but GUI complaints are legitimate. Perhaps a confirmation when leaving the screen after cat point investment? That would be a considerably less extreme adjustment and still manage to prevent your current grievance.
Re: Another reason we need respec
Well said!Frumple wrote:Like it or lump it. I don't want respec in this game, nor does a fair amount of the game's population. The points as to why have been made previously, you've seen them before, as have most folks that have chimed in on the discussion. Better to make it so no point can be truly wasted than allow full talent point reallocation. Respec just means more meta-game character building, where you heavily (over) invest in early-game useful abilities and then turn around and ditch them in the end game. That's not a pleasant scenario.
Improvements might be made to the talent screen -- I've mis-allocated a few points in my time, too -- but the fault in this case is yours, not the game, and the implementation of re-specialization certainly isn't the solution. Incautious action doesn't have terribly much place in a roguelike, yeah, but GUI complaints are legitimate. Perhaps a confirmation when leaving the screen after cat point investment? That would be a considerably less extreme adjustment and still manage to prevent your current grievance.
Regards
Jon.
Jon.
Re: Another reason we need respec
There is still a valid point for stat points, which are uneditable after moving to the talent screen. It would be nice to be able to go back and change my current stat upgrade points after seeing the stat requirements on the talent screen.
Predawn
Predawn
Predawn
Re: Another reason we need respec
In that case simply don't allocate the stat points and come back to these after you've checked your talent screen.
I agree with Frumple - this is a roguelike, and actions have permanent consequences. Allowing respec would encourage a very insidious sort of meta play that would detract from the fun of the game.
I agree with Frumple - this is a roguelike, and actions have permanent consequences. Allowing respec would encourage a very insidious sort of meta play that would detract from the fun of the game.
Re: Another reason we need respec
It would help a lot if you had some way of knowing how the various skills would develop (e.g. "maximum radius x" on area of effect spells, similar to the message "turns into a beam at level 3".) A confirm button on burning category points would also be reasonable. It can be annoying not to know which of the skills never get good (one-point wonders) and which really blossom at higher levels.
Allowing a respec to be traded for a life seems reasonable to me, and some folks would find that to be an interesting choice. It certainly wouldn't be free and could be tied to a quest.
Allowing a respec to be traded for a life seems reasonable to me, and some folks would find that to be an interesting choice. It certainly wouldn't be free and could be tied to a quest.
Re: Another reason we need respec
If a skill is a one-point-wonder then that needs to be flagged up and discussed.
Re: Another reason we need respec
In terms of GUI, I'd like to suggest any changed skills become Bold, very bold. And even another color.
Talent categories, the same. And the confirmation box when you've assigned a category, especially if you've not invested a talent in that category.
Talent categories, the same. And the confirmation box when you've assigned a category, especially if you've not invested a talent in that category.
Re: Another reason we need respec
It's really hard to analyze the skills and provide feedback on their relative effectiveness without the ability to respec. Typically I pick an approach, run with it, and then settle on a combination that will get me to the late game. It's very time-consuming to generate multiple characters of a single class. Now I understand why you'd want, in a finished product, to regulate how people get to things; this is why commercial RPGs don't let you just dive into the middle of the game or shuffle your overall stats. But this is a beta, and rules are different in beta stage for good cause.
On reflection, quite apart from what should be done in the "final" version, this is something that the designers should strongly consider for now. It would also be an interesting testing option, for instance, to be able to repeat a dungeon with different specs at the same level with the same class - especially for classes which have radically different possible styles. Or to test the medium to advanced dungeons by skipping the initial set and autolevelling - perhaps if you've unlocked them already. Call it "debug" mode or the like, but I imagine that it could actually get you much better info on character/class/dungeon balance at the higher levels. I've gotten two winners and am closing on a third, but the game is a good deal more uneven at the late stages (in the sense of dungeon by dungeon challenge and risk vs. reward.) This is a normal problem for roguelikes - whenever you have many people dealing with the initial encounters and few with the later encounters.
On reflection, quite apart from what should be done in the "final" version, this is something that the designers should strongly consider for now. It would also be an interesting testing option, for instance, to be able to repeat a dungeon with different specs at the same level with the same class - especially for classes which have radically different possible styles. Or to test the medium to advanced dungeons by skipping the initial set and autolevelling - perhaps if you've unlocked them already. Call it "debug" mode or the like, but I imagine that it could actually get you much better info on character/class/dungeon balance at the higher levels. I've gotten two winners and am closing on a third, but the game is a good deal more uneven at the late stages (in the sense of dungeon by dungeon challenge and risk vs. reward.) This is a normal problem for roguelikes - whenever you have many people dealing with the initial encounters and few with the later encounters.
Re: Another reason we need respec
Is min-maxing skills really that much more "cheesy" than min-maxing equipment? If there are skills that are useful early-game but useless late-game, or vice-versa, that's a balance problem, not a feature.
If the skills are balanced, there is no reason to disallow respecing, and several reasons to allow it:
1. The alternative is that people will invest in the skills that are useful late-game, and tough it out in the early game. It's bad game design to try to fight human nature.
2. Suppose you're a late-level archmage and just unlocked a new magic category. It's a pretty big bummer to have to wait until your next character to try out the new skills.
3. There are an awful lot of skills, and it's not at all always clear from their descriptions how effective a skill will be before actually using it. Players taking a chance trying out diverse skills is something you want to encourage... and starting a new character from scratch is a very high impediment to that.
If the skills are balanced, there is no reason to disallow respecing, and several reasons to allow it:
1. The alternative is that people will invest in the skills that are useful late-game, and tough it out in the early game. It's bad game design to try to fight human nature.
2. Suppose you're a late-level archmage and just unlocked a new magic category. It's a pretty big bummer to have to wait until your next character to try out the new skills.
3. There are an awful lot of skills, and it's not at all always clear from their descriptions how effective a skill will be before actually using it. Players taking a chance trying out diverse skills is something you want to encourage... and starting a new character from scratch is a very high impediment to that.
Re: Another reason we need respec
Jeez, this is a roguelike for pete's sake. Replayability at it's best and respec'ing is exactly the opposite of it.
I understand the GUI issues are present and should be addressed, but it isn't really that urgent. If you are rushing your leveling up you should be punished.
I understand the GUI issues are present and should be addressed, but it isn't really that urgent. If you are rushing your leveling up you should be punished.
Re: Another reason we need respec
I have a solution...
Well in addition to Frumple's well thought out post about the GUI how about an item that lets you use the Precognition spell. Want to know how great a talent is? Use your Helm of Precognition, learn it, and test.
Well in addition to Frumple's well thought out post about the GUI how about an item that lets you use the Precognition spell. Want to know how great a talent is? Use your Helm of Precognition, learn it, and test.
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faustgeist
- Halfling
- Posts: 98
- Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:59 pm
Re: Another reason we need respec
I have no issues with the way the talents are presently set up, but agree with ohioastro, in that it is very difficult to study the options with the intention of offering feedback.
I believe a 'Developers Edition' could assist the generous people who want to dig deep into the system, not to win the game, but to test mechanics, balance and offer the coders healthy feedback.
A Developers Edition could be limited to certain dungeons/level cap/ even the ability to start with lv 40... the entire purpose being balance examination and the a testing platform for new abilities, fine tuning and beta testing new, risky approaches.
Am I suggesting the super cool creators to do more work? Nope. Just food for thought....
~Robin
I believe a 'Developers Edition' could assist the generous people who want to dig deep into the system, not to win the game, but to test mechanics, balance and offer the coders healthy feedback.
A Developers Edition could be limited to certain dungeons/level cap/ even the ability to start with lv 40... the entire purpose being balance examination and the a testing platform for new abilities, fine tuning and beta testing new, risky approaches.
Am I suggesting the super cool creators to do more work? Nope. Just food for thought....
~Robin
Re: Another reason we need respec
You can always modify the lua files relatively easily.
Re: Another reason we need respec
Someone (Frumple I think) mentioned on IRC a debug option to reset all talents might be useful in the cheat menu.
For the developer mode crowd there's already the option for that in the settings folder and it it's just a matter of being able to respec for testing purposes then that's where it should be added.
For the developer mode crowd there's already the option for that in the settings folder and it it's just a matter of being able to respec for testing purposes then that's where it should be added.