Some ideas for a monkish class.

[edge2054]

Yeah, a lot of these thoughts come from watching the new Karate Kid, the kung fu practitioner in tekken, and other various forms of media.

Basically though I'd like to incorporate stance based fighting into a monk class. Another thought I had was making them actual shape shifters which might be interesting but I'm not sure that's really the route I'd want to go if I sit down and code it.

I like the layout Jon described though I don't know how it would work into a stance based class. I also like the suggestion Grey posted on using Tome animals but I was working under the assumption that just because something isn't coded and in-game doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the world.

On the other hand Phoenix might be cooler then crane

[madmonk]

On the other hand Phoenix might be cooler then crane

What's in a name? A rose, by any other name would smell as sweet!

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I was actually working on an martial arts class that used staff instead of unarmed but this actually sounds better, so I'll abandon it for now. There are some similar ideas here though, and some new ones that I like.

I would prefer that stances be voluntary and not automatic though. Having them tied to a basic attack or ability is pretty cool though. I would also have the stances each also change basic things like attack, armor, and speed, as well as disabling certain skills, so the more offense stance might disable healing and infusions, for example. Switching stances should very much be a tactical decision.

[edge2054]

Yeah, the ideas I had for the stances was basically this...

Upon learning the associated strike the character would also learn the stance. For instance learning Tiger Strike would teach you Tiger Stance.

You could switch into Tiger Stance like you could any other sustain or you could perform a Tiger Strike and move into Tiger Stance if you're not already. The other Tiger actives (Tiger Rip and Tiger Rake using the examples) would only be available in Tiger Stance. Tiger Strike could be used from any stance but doing so would put you in Tiger Stance.

Tiger Stance would be offensive in nature, increasing crit, ap, and damage. These bonuses would increase with more points put into Tiger Mastery. The cooldowns on all abilities would be balanced assuming that a player would be forced to use multiple stances if he wanted to use a talent every turn or bump attacks otherwise. More points in Tiger Mastery would lower these cooldowns but considering you only have three active tiger skills it wouldn't get them down to where they could be used in rotation. For example Tiger Strike may have a cooldown of 8, Tiger Rake 10, and Tiger Rip 15. Maxing Tiger Mastery may lower all these cooldowns by 5 but it still wouldn't be enough to spam them without stance swapping.

To go further I was thinking each stance would concentrate on certain areas.

Tiger would be the high damage stance. It's abilities would concentrate on damage and killing rather then crippling or movement.

Leopard was going to be the more mobile stance. The class wouldn't get rush and if you want to close quickly with an opponent you'd need to do it using one of the leopard stance talents.

Crane was going to have a blind disable and some evasive abilities. Maybe a riposte type ability built into the stance.

Snake defensive stance with a grab and a quick strike of some kind. Hadn't really thought to much about this stance yet.

Dragon another power stance like Tiger but with strikes that concentrate on maiming the opponent. Also wanted this stance to regenerate stamina while active to represent it's endurance and harnessing of chi.

But yeah, all just thoughts nothing really fleshed out yet.

[Grey]

Crane stance needs some ranged fly kicks - hiyaaahh!

[Canderel]

how do we keep the trees balanced and interesting without being to hotkey heavy?

You could switch into Tiger Stance like you could any other sustain or you could perform a Tiger Strike and move into Tiger Stance if you're not already. The other Tiger actives (Tiger Rip and Tiger Rake using the examples) would only be available in Tiger Stance. Tiger Strike could be used from any stance but doing so would put you in Tiger Stance.

On stances, have 1 hotkey... Change stance, which will then show you a list of available stances from which you pick. Escaping, keeps you in your current stance. (this might be a bit tedious, but it's less hotkey-heavy).

[Grey]

The problem would be that you have a stance-switching key and then numerous differents abilities that can only be activated in that stance. The end result is that the player will stick to one stance throughout the game as its easier to remember 4 hotkeys instead of 20, and probably better from a power perspective to shove all your points into one area. This is why I suggested automatic stances - the player doesn't get to max out one tree and roll with only that. This is also why I suggested only passive effects to stances - no huge list of exclusive abilities. Stances should have added effects to universal abilities, rather than creating a whole host of extra abilities for the player to activate and remember.

I agree that it's fine to use animals that aren't already in ToME, on the assumption that they're simply not encounterable enemies. However I'd still suggest switching tiger to bear, as tiger is too exotic and far too reminiscent of Chinese martial arts. Any ToME implementation of monks would have to separate itself from oriental themes, with focus being more on the real combat effects.

[Canderel]

Automatic stance changes would be good too, but then just have 2-3 activated abilities (attacks) too, which will differ on stance. (2-3 hotkeys)...

Punch, Kick, Finish move? And each is an ability in the tree. So each tree has "tree-mastery", a punch, a kick and a finish?

Though the names punch, kick and finish, is probably too restrictive, but "attack 1, attack 2 and attack 3" is probably too vague.

Lets say, Strike, Kick, Signature move?

[Grey]

Finishing moves would be awesome! Especially if they had graphic descriptions, and extra added effects depending on stance (hit others in area, regain health/stamina, temporary boosts to attack and defence, etc). They could work like Swallow, causing damage with added effects on kill.

Automatic stances would have to be intuitive enough for the player to be able to switch between them with ease without having to resort to hotkeys. For instance base attack two times in a row for tiger stance. Two kicks in a row for crane stance. Rest then move then rest for snake stance. Move backwards and then forwards and then attack for dragon. Could have a nice Street Fighter-y feel :)

If you haven't seen the combat moves from PrincessRL then I encourage you to give it a go - coolest roguelike fighting abilities ever implemented. Not that ToME should just copy it, but it gives some nice inspiration.

[Susramanian]

The most important thing about a kung-fu class is getting the names of the techniques right. The primary objective should be inscrutability and comedy. Look here:
http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~pound/kungfu.html

This is a list that gets updated every fifteen minutes with randomly generated kung-fu-sounding moves. Some samples:

fragrant gecko ambush
jumping gecko hammer
terrible orchid pose
innocent flash frenzy
two orchid touch
standing paradise knee
uncomfortable ancestor arrow
sign of the eunuch neck-snap
invincible hawk feet
deceptive rooster nerve pinch
ancient phoenix energy
magnificent immortal hands
mystic snake justice
splendid scorpion kung-fu
sacred butterfly pose
flying goldfish hammer
dancing butterfly wrestling
10,000 flash energy

I just randomly highlighted a small portion of the 500 listed moves to get the above.

[martinuzz]

How about..

Orc Stance

1) Orc Stance
- sustained
- grants 10%(at level 1) - 50% (at level 5) stun resistance
- increases melee damage, and critical chance
- reduces physical, magic and mental saves
- damage/critical chance increase scale with TL and Dexterity
- saves increase with TL and Willpower

2) Strike (Brutal Punch)
- does (x) weapon damage
- each Strike has a chance to make the target bleed
- damage increases with TL
- bleed chance increases with Willpower
- bleed damage increases with TL and Dexterity
- stamina cost: 10

3) Kick (Brutal Kick)
- does (x) weapon damage
- each kick has a chance to stun the target
- damage increases with TL
- stun chance increases with Willpower
- stun duration scales with TL and Dexterity
- stamina cost: 20

3) Special (Brutal Roar)
- deactivates Orc Stance, and puts it on cooldown
- project a beam that does (x) weapon damage
- dazes targets for 2 turns
- damage increases with TL and Dexterity
- beam lenght increases with Willpower
- stamina cost: 40

Ent Stance

1) Ent Stance
- sustained
- increases armor, and saves
- decreases fire resistance -40%
- makes you immobile
- armor and saves scale with TL and Willpower

2) Strike (Ent's Branches)
- does 50% weapon damage to the target
- has a chance to put one of the opponent's talents on cooldown, two at level 3, three at level 5
- part of damage dealt is regained as stamina
- stamina regain scales with TL and Willpower
- chance to put talent(s) on cooldown scales with TL and Dexterity
- stamina cost: 10

3) Kick (Ent's Roots / Entangle)
- does 25% (or less) weapon damage in a radius around the Monk
- has a chance to pin those it hits for (x) turns
- part of the damage dealt is regained as health
- health regain scales with TL and Willpower
- radius scales with Constitution (say.. radius 4 at Con=100)
- stamina cost: 20

4) Special (Uproot)
- deactivates Ent Stance, and puts it on cooldown
- changes places with the target
- does (x) weapon damage in a radius of 1 around the target
- damage scales with TL, and Dexterity
- stamina cost: 40

Wyrm Stance

1) Wyrm Stance
- sustained
- physical damage dealt is converted to 50% cold, with a chance to freeze, and 50% fire, with a chance to burn
- increases defense and ranged defense
- increase movement speed
- drains stamina while active
- chance to freeze/burn scales with TL
- defense, ranged defense increase scale with TL and Willpower
- movement speed increase scales with TL and Constitution

2) Strike (Wyrm's Claws)
- Strike 2 times in rapid succession. The first strike will do normal weapon damage. If the second strike hits, it will damage the target for (x) weapon damage, and project a part of that damage in a cone following the strike's direction.
- creatures hit by the second strike have a chance to be confused for (y) turns
- second strike initial damage scales with Dexterity
- percent of damage projected increases with TL and Willpower
- chance to confuse scales with Willpower
- confusion duration scales with Dexterity
- cone lenght scales with Constitution
- stamina cost: 20

3) Kick (Wyrm's Tail)
- does (x) weapon damage in a radius of 1 around the caster
- has a chance to knockback creatures it hits
- damage scales with TL and Dexterity
- knockback chance increases with Willpower
- knockback range scales with Constitution

4) Special (Wyrm's Spawn)
- deactivates Wyrm Stance, and puts it on cooldown
- creates a clone of you and spawns it next to you. At level 3, spawns a 2nd clone. At level 5, it spawns 3 clones
- the clone stays for (x) turns
- clones cannot attack, or take any action, but will damage any creature attacking them
- each turn, clones have a chance to taunt creatures in a radius of (y), forcing them to attack the clone
- clone duration scales with Dexterity
- taunt chance increases with TL and Willpower
- taunt radius scales with Constitution

[edge2054]

Still toying with this idea.

Currently I'm thinking of cutting the styles down to three and having each style tree center around one thing. Also I'm thinking of using my original (okay not so original but from the original post anyway) idea of combo points. However instead of tracking combo points each combo point will lower the cooldown on all monk talents on cooldown by 1. So the idea is, do I open with my uber power that grants lots of combo points or do I open with a couple of long cooldown strikes and then use my uber power to get my strikes off cooldown?

Anyway here's what I've got so far, note that it's very much a work in progress and that the generic trees I mentioned earlier are still in my working plan (though I'm not going to retype them until I have everything put together.)

The Styles (Automatically learned once the respective three fold fist ability is learned. Can not invest talent points in these. To improve them the character must improve Three Fold Mastery)
Dragon Style
The character imitates the dragon, gaining bonuses to striking technique damage, armor, and stun resist.
Phoenix Style
The character imitates the phoenix, gaining bonuses to defense, a secondary attack, and stamina regen.
Hydra Style
The character imitates the hydra, gaining bonuses to grapple technique damage, life regen, and knockback resist.

Three Fold Fist (Finishing Moves that force stance change and have longish cooldowns. Each combo point earned lowers the cooldowns on any Three Fold Fist talent on cooldown.)
Dragon Palm - A vicious attack that stuns the opponent. Forces the character into dragon stance.
Phoenix Talon - The monk jumps to the targeted area and delivers a devastating whirlwind kick that will hit multiple opponents. Talent level will increase the range of the jump and damage of the kick. Forces the player into phoenix stance.
Hydra Fang - A vicious attack that ignores armor. Grappled opponents may be instantly slain. Forces the player into hydra stance.
Three Fold Mastery - Increases style bonuses and lowers the cooldown of Dragon Palm, Hydra Fang, and Phoenix Talon by 1 + 1 per talent point invested.

Taming the Dragon (Strike Techniques)
Dragon Strike - A basic attack with scaling damage. Very short cooldown but costs stamina to use. Earns one combo point.
Double Dragon - A double strike (or triple strike if using Hydra Style). Earns two combo points.
Dragon Tail - A low sweep kick that will hit all opponents in a frontal arc (think Sweep talent) and knock them back. Earns one combo point per opponent hit.
Dragon’s Fury (sustained) - Increases crit and awards one combo point when the character crits.

Taming the Phoenix (Defensive Techniques)
Phoenix Strike - A quick attack to the opponents eyes. Blinds the target and earns 1 combo point.
Phoenix Dance (sustained) - Grants evasion and a combo point whenever an opponenet misses the character.
Inner Fire - Increases life and stamina regen by X% for a few turns (so a much better buff when using hydra or phoenix style). Earns two combo points on activation.
Phoenix Heart - Converts all damage to arcane for a few turns and earns two combo points on activation.


Taming the Hydra (Grapple Techniques)
Hydra Bite - Grapples the target, inflicting damage on hit, lowering attack and defense, and pinning them. Earns one combo point. Only one target may be grappled at a time and moving will break the grapple. Enemy attacks have a chance to hit your grappled opponent rather then you.
Hydra’s Lock - A joint lock designed to disable the opponent. Stuns the target and deals damage each turn. Earns two combo points. More effective on grappled opponents.
Hydra Fury (sustained) - Grants the character AP and a combo point every time a hit deals more then 10% of his life.
Hydra Crush - Constricts the target, silencing it, inflicting damage each turn, and cutting of its air flow. Earns one combo point per turn. More effective on grappled opponents.

[edge2054]

Breaking away from tradition and actually closer to my original post I've started coding this.

The stuff I have so far for the curious.

Striking Stance - Increases move speed, damage done by striking talents, and critical power
Grappling Stance - Increases armor, damage done by grappling talents, and phys saves.
Tactical Stance - Increases defense, damage done by tactical talents, and stamina regen.


Three Fold Fist (the first three talents auto teach the stances) (tree requires dex, str, and cunning depending on the talent. The last talent requires all three)

Rushing Knee Strike - A combination short range rush plus stunning blow. Moves the character into striking stance and deals extra damage the further you travel. Breaks active grabs.
Grapple - Grabs the target, inflicting a bit of damage and reducing it's attack and defense. Moves the character into grappling stance.
Set Up - Increases defense for a few turns. While set up is active there's a chance melee attacks that miss you will set up the target, reducing defense and saving throws for 2 turns. Moves the character into tactical stance.
Three Fold Mastery - Increases the talent level of all three stances by 1.

Striking
Combination Strike - A quick jab that follows with a hook if it connects. Builds two combo points if both attacks hit. (combo points reduce the cooldown on talents on cooldown by 1).
Rising Knee - A knee strike that deals bonus damage against grappled targets. Builds one combo point.
Spinning Back Hand - Another short range rush type talent that hits up to three targets. Breaks active grapples but generates one combo point per target hit and deals extra damage if you move forward.
Expert Strikes - Grants physical resist penetration and earns a combo point every time you crit but drains stamina.

Unarmed Training (generic)
Also finished but bored of typing. Grants unarmed mastery and some general defense and armor talents.

[aberk]

I have been waiting for the monk to make a reappearance and love the ideas in this thread. My suggestion would be to make the class flexible regarding weapon and armor use. I would ideally like the stances to work armed or unarmed, possibly even with different effects. The unarmed warrior is a classic and totally cool option, but I think the class should accommodate players who want to integrate weapon usage.

My concrete suggestion would be to have Edge2054's martial arts training tree, but to also include a kata tree that has weapon techniques. Characters could use the katas with any weapon, so no new weapons are required. Katas would also be special feats that would not replace the generic weapons mastery and weapons combat skills. Some rough ideas are:

Chi focus: character meditates for a couple turns and then delivers a powerful strike. Scales with willpower and may drain target's mana.

Weakness attunement: makesyour weapon do additional damage that an enemy is susceptible to (fire, cold, lightning, blight, etc.) for a few turns

Channel weapon: like channel staff, but based on weapon's brand damage.

Spirit channel: a percentage of an enemy's life is stored in your weapon. After you kill x enemies, the stored life is added to the next attack. Sustainable and decreases energy source (stamina or equilibrium) while active.

Alternatively, we could just give them access to staff mastery.

Let me know what you think.

[edge2054]

There's a lot of good ideas in this thread that I won't be using.

That said I don't want to discourage ideas The trees I'm building and the stuff I'm working on could also work for a more of a psi based or wilder martial artist that uses Chi or 'harmony with nature' as the theme. So maybe some day we'll see a hybrid that uses weapons, chi, or equilibrium. But the class I've started coding will only use stamina, unarmed attacks, and light armor. He'll focus on striking and grappling and play heavily on the intricacies of these two fighting styles. I'm also going back to my initial idea of combo points and finishing strikes (much like the diablo 2 assassin).

Here's the trees I've got basically finished.

Martial Arts - Contains the three style switching talents.
Bareknuckle Boxing - Strikes build combo points and deal more damage from striking stance.
Grappling - Grapples deal more damage from grappling stance.
Unarmed Training - Generic unarmed combat tree.
Conditioning - Constitution based generic tree.

And half coded/planned trees.
Tactical - Tactical advantages.
Finishers - Finishing moves, require combo points to execute and have greater effects the more combo points you have.
Kick Boxing (Advanced Tree) - Tree focused on kicks. These will build combo points, offer a new finisher at the top, and deal more damage from striking stance.
Throws (Advanced Tree) - Tree focused on throws. Offers a new finisher (that will let you throw a grappled mob like as an aoe attack ) and deals more damage from grappling stance.

The trees really only tell half the story though. With some help and ideas from the folks on IRC I've got a pretty intricate set of grappling functions worked up which will let the talents track who's grappled, only allow grapples to be maintained while striking if you're striking a target you're grappling, prevent you from grappling great wyrms (unless you inflate your size category ), let you seamlessly switch grapples (you can only grapple one enemy at a time), and deal extra damage with some attacks if you're grappling that target.

The striking code has some nice stuff in it as well like a few rush style talents that deal extra damage the further you travel. I think we'll get a lot of mileage out of a martial artist who's only using stamina