Channel Elements -- too many attacks?

[Fubar Obfusco]

I've been fiddling with Geomancy ideas again. (Yes, I know it's a terrible habit and will probably drive me blind, but I just can't stop.)

I'm curious what other folks who have started playing Geomancers think about the Channel Elements spell. Specifically, is it really worthwhile for it to be mostly attacks? Here's my thinking on the matter:

1. Elemental skills don't diverge much. In 2.2.1, raising Geomancy raises your elemental magic skills a lot, so much so that I don't find myself spending many points on them at all. As a result they stay relatively balanced: no one element much stronger than the others. Thus, while casting Channel Elements on different grids does convey different damage, my skills don't lead me to prefer one grid over another particularly.

2. Vaporize and Elemental Wave trump Channel's attacks much of the time. At least, this is how I find myself using them. Vaporize dominates the short range, and has an attack for every elemental grid including grass. Elemental Wave dominates the medium/long range when there's time to prepare (and I go for stealthy Geomancers...)

3. Book magic provides attack spells. Now that Geyser is not made entirely of Nerf[tm] brand foam rubber toys (and I hope it will soon be even less so), Geomancers have a useful low level attack. There are plenty more a bit higher in the elemental schools, too -- like Fireflash and Firewall. Since Geomancers have the elemental skills almost automatically, they can use these for attack options.

4. Channel could perhaps be more useful. People seem to like (and use) the sand effect of Channel Elements, one of the two non-attacks. (It seems to me that the other, the healing effect, could be a bit more powerful.) It's an interesting balance of a relatively powerful effect (an aura shield) available at low level, but with a quirky downside (blindness) that makes it more interesting.

If Channel is to remain mostly attacks, it should be attacks that do not match those offered by book spells. Fireflash is a ball spell, as is Ice Storm ... so perhaps Channel on lava and ice should never be a ball spell. On lava it could be bolt or beam, while on ice it could be a bolt that did ice and shards damage. Likewise for Channel on water to be a bolt or beam duplicates Geyser in effect (albeit with more power).

Alternately, it could be something other than attacks. Here are some possibilities on the various elements:

Lava: It's hard to come up with anything but attacks for the element of Fire. However, it could be a unique attack ... for instance, a wide-area, low-damage light attack, useful for zapping insects and breeders and such.

Water: Many of the water spells in ToME use the idea of a rushing flood of water. Another image associated with water is washing, or purification. This spell could remove poisoning and other unpleasantness, and at higher levels perhaps remove curses or grant some ilk of blessing.

Ice: Again, this is a natural attack -- the stabbing icicle or stinging ice storm. But we already have an Ice Storm spell, and Vaporize does nicely with ice as well. Ice is also however connected to the idea of slowness or freezing -- so this could be a slowing or (at high levels) paralyzation spell. Alternately, it could be a spell akin to Tree Roots -- freezing you in place (in a block of ice!) and giving you massive armor, but letting you cast spells (but not attack). Or both -- depending on if you target yourself or a monster!

[Atarlost]

I would be inclined to go the other way, pull the attack spells out of the elemental schools and reserve them for geomancy. There need to be more attack spells in the non-elemental schools to compensate. Alternately, and this is my preference, the current schools can be removed entirely, substituting geomancy and my warper idea along with some other stuff, possibly including a rebalance mindcrafting slotted under the mind and divination skills. Get rid of the books. Gandalf never used a spellbook. Saruman never used a spellbook. Elrond never used a spellbook. Galadriel never used a spellbook. Nobody anywhere in tolkein ever used a spellbook.

[Neil]

No no no no no.. more people than just Geomancers are meant to use the four elemental schools. You can't gut the magic schools system of attack spells. Especially not Fireflash. I find that the best spell for hitting Morgoth.

[Tachyon]

I am inclined to agree with Atarlost. Spellbooks must go!

[darkgod]

The thing is it is a tolkien oriented game, not a tolkien game fllowing the storyline by the letter.

And spellbooks inventory usgae compensates for the power.
Peoplewihtout spells dont need them so can carry more, or use sticks whcih use inventory too

[Tachyon]

In that case, I have the perfect idea: get rid of the books, then compensate by powering down magic schools! Don't totally nerf them, or make them weaker than mindcraft ; just make them weak enough to not require inventory space. This would work because you'd have to pay more skillpoints to get a balanced character than if you used, say, mindcraft, since even though school spells are more powerful than other kinds of magic, each school focuses mainly on one type of spell. Fire, for example, focuses almost exclusively on fire-based attack spells; water, on water-based attack spells; and nature, on healing spells.

Oh, and by the way, when I said not to totally nerf stuff, I was talking about things like tidal wave and fireflash, not manathrust

[darkgod]

If the spells power are , say, reduced by half, it means it takes twice more time to kill a monster. Are you willing to pay that price ? I am not.

[Blackdog]

In that case, I have the perfect idea: get rid of the books, then compensate by powering down magic schools! Don't totally nerf them, or make them weaker than mindcraft ; just make them weak enough to not require inventory space. This would work because you'd have to pay more skillpoints to get a balanced character than if you used, say, mindcraft, since even though school spells are more powerful than other kinds of magic, each school focuses mainly on one type of spell. Fire, for example, focuses almost exclusively on fire-based attack spells; water, on water-based attack spells; and nature, on healing spells.

Oh, and by the way, when I said not to totally nerf stuff, I was talking about things like tidal wave and fireflash, not manathrust

So I'm trading...skill points and power for...inventory space?

[Tachyon]

Uh, okay, forget I said that. Wow that was stupid

[Jules]

It will be perfectly possible, in 3.0.0, to produce a non-spellbook magic system entirely in lua, as a module. (actually it probably is with 2.2). In fact, you could even write a D&D style 'memorised spell' system (you know, where you memorise a certain number of spells but after you cast each one it is gone; then you don't carry books in the dungeon but keep them in your home), although this would definitely require 3.0.

So if you really think it would be better you can just go do it. And get playtesters, and tell us how well it works out :)

The way I see it, ToME already has non-spellbook spells: they're necromancy, mindcraft, symbiosis, possessors using their bodies powers, etc.

[darkgod]

Why owuld it require 300 ?? The GUSS is fully operationnal already

[Atarlost]

If the GUSS wasn't operational I could do something, but I can't work in LUA.

[Tachyon]

First of all, it would be stupid if you could only cast a memorized spell once, and then would forget it; if that were the case, no one would bother to use memorized spells. How about this: You have a limit of ten spells that you can permanently memorize, and in order to memorize a spell you have to cast it several times, during a situation when you would normally cast it.

Second of all, what the heck is GUSS?

[darkgod]

If the GUSS wasn't operational I could do something, but I can't work in LUA.

???


And GUSS = Grand Unified Spell System

In 220 it holds player spells schools, geomancy, wands, staves, artifacts
in 300 it will also hold traps, monster traps, floor inscriptions, monster spells

[Neil]

and rods in 3, too.