Anorithil tweaks

[Grey]

Any discussion on the suggestion of hardcaps to the positive and negative bars and a removal of their degradation?

[darkgod]

I like the idea, sounds more fun.

[darkgod]

Although since I'm switching Hymns to Light as anorithil reward the Light tree would need a way to reduce positive energy, otherwise it's quite useless :/

[yufra]

Although since I'm switching Hymns to Light as anorithil reward the Light tree would need a way to reduce positive energy, otherwise it's quite useless :/

You could have the positive and negative regen default to -0.2 (current) for all classes EXCEPT anorithil and sun paladins, which could have a regen of 0. The explanation would be other classes aren't as good at storing the positive energy... what pessimists!

[TheRani]

My last Anorithil died because some sort of orc mage made her Hymn (and all her other buffs) go away, and then his friends stunned her. If she had been wearing her stun resist in her armor instead of relying on a hymn that can be dispelled, she probably would have survived.

[Nevuk]

Stuns just aren't fun, really. Especially lengthy or chain-able stuns on early bosses like Wrathroot. (Stunning blow + freeze result in any character with <100 resist going in being a huuge risk). Stun resist is currently the most important stat for every class except maybe an alchemist. I think the best solution is just to make stuns rarer and lower duration. They are kind of the ultimate in crowd control right now, even massively nerfed they would still be very strong, just no longer strong to the exclusion of all other considerations stat-wise. Just removing all control from the player is very frustrating, especially for such a lengthy duration of time.

I would be ok if a boss was capable of stuns that combined added up to 3 turns on a lengthy cooldown. The ratio for stuns I would want is 2 turns stunned for every 10 turns of cooldown, even on player characters. At least towards other elites/uniques. Stuns in general in TOME are just really overpowered and unpredictable. Characters shouldn't have to rely on their stuns to function, the way rogues currently do unless very overleveled over the opponents. Bosses no longer really need the added bonus and can make up for it in rune skill and strength instead, making it more of a tactical decision than one to grind for 100 resist before going down to the boss level on most dungeons. Even generic critters having them but rarely using them (Skeleton/Orc warriors come to mind) can make stun resist really important. I don't really like the feeling of having bosses be either super easy because every stun went through or the feeling of just dying to their stuns in the same way on a rogue.

The current 8 or 9 turns is un-counterable by any measures except stun resist. The dps on a boss is just too high for almost any character to live through them at lower levels for that many turns.

[Final Master]

1) I am in favor of Hymn of Perseverance getting a slight nerf or a reversal in how it grows [aka tlvl over magic]
2) Remove Hymn of Perseverance from the list of rewards for rescuing an Anorthil, instead put in Chant of Fortitude
3) Remove Chant of Fortitude from Sun Paladin escort rewards and put in Healing Light

This does several things
1st - It makes Perseverance less of a 100% on all the time except when you are sure to not run into stun/confuse enemies [wich is almost never... so it's always on]
2nd - It keeps that talent away from other classes, bringing back the need for equipment and less of a completely 'free' way to prevent negative effects to their character
3rd - It brings in a way to heal, most classes have no way to heal hp, and with how Healing Light scales, it'll be like a weak heal infusion [but not strong enough to replace a heal infusion]

Another possible replacement instead of Healing Light would perhaps be Sunburst...

Though, I do understand the flavor of most rewards from escorts being non-actives and non-resource using, there are... very few of those talents for the divine classes.

Minimally - Perseverance should be removed from an escort reward option.

[Grey]

Nice to see you again FM :D

Good idea actually, I support it. Maybe even Providence instead of Healing Light.

[darkgod]

I already done something similar in svn

And yes welcome back !

[shwqa]

I'm still in the line of thought that that Anorithil are perfecting fine and using a passive ability to prevent (85% of the time) stun and confusion is ok. I thought the whole point of Anorithil was that they did less damage and had few abilities than archamge but were more defensive. The game is still hard for them; an elite berserker and blood mage can take a anorithil out in a turn or two, so it not like they are just walking through the game without worry. I would really like focusing more on class that are unwinnable rather weakening classes that can beat the game. Currently since b19 only classes to have won are: Anorthil, Cursed, Doomed, Mindslayer, Berserker, Archmage, and Summoner.

[edge2054]

85% stun and confusion might be all right on a class skill.

85% stun, confusion, and blindness on a generic that's given by an escort, that should be comparable to other talents in the same tree because they're mutually exclusive, that also starts off with a base of 20 so it gives over 30% for the first talent point, and that costs next to no negative energy to sustain...

not so balanced.

As to the last comment...

I would really like focusing more on class that are unwinnable rather weakening classes that can beat the game. Currently since b19 only classes to have won are: Anorthil, Cursed, Doomed, Mindslayer, Berserker, Archmage, and Summoner.

Why is that every time nerfing (err.. rebalancing) an overpowered ability or class comes up this gets mentioned? I think I've seen that comment more then once in this thread and I know I've seen it show up several times in the last few weeks since rebalancing of zerkers and cursed have come up.

Not to sound defensive here but... Fighters just got a new tree, I've been tweaking Temporal Wardens since the day they where released (even more tweaks coming next beta), Summoners just got buffs, Alchemists just got buffs, DG just put a whole slew of buffs in the SVN for Corruptors, yufra's been working hard to improve the tactical AI which will buff Summoners and Alchemists some more, rogues could use some loving I can't argue but they didn't start with the trapping tree so it's not like they've been ignored (same goes for wyrmics and the lightning tree), Arcane Blades just got some loving with yufra's buff to the spell proc ability (forget the name), Benli just buffed Doomed, Archers and Slingers just got buffs on the SVN, and to top it all off... whatever adjustment DG has made that could possibly be nerfs to Anorithil just came with a nice BUFF to the Light tree to give people some options other then loading up on healing and shielding runes.

And yes, that's one sentence and that's really just recent buffs. I could go back further but I'm not going to. The point is it's about balance. Which means stuff that's overpowered, specifically overpowered talents, need to be brought in line and underpowered talents and classes need to be improved. Part of class balance involves nerfs too. Talents shouldn't outshine each other to the point Perseverance does. Jumpgate shouldn't be the best escape spell in the game for a single talent point. Hymn of Moonlight shouldn't suck as bad as it does and now that it only drains energy on fire hopefully it doesn't. Not everything Grey suggested was nerfs but yes... Perseverance is to good for the investment and in the ongoing struggle for class balance it got nerfed on the SVN. And note that when I use the word class balance I'm not just referring to balance between the classes, I'm also talking about a class's own interior balance... like choosing not to use Hymn of Shadow or Moonlight EVER because Perseverance is just that much better.

[TheRani]

I have no problems with anorithils getting nerfed a little. I'm just saying that the built-in disadvantage of relying heavily on any buff for something as vital as your stun resistance is that it can be dispelled by some enemies. After what happened to my last anorithil, I actually wished I had chosen stun-resistant armor and used a different hymn.

[gruevy]

Edge: No one who isn't helping program has any idea what's on the SVN, so all those buffs you mention? None of us know about them. That's why it keeps coming up

[edge2054]

I realize not everyone is on the SVN but there's been several buffs to several classes over the last few betas, many of which I also mentioned (fighters, summoners, alchemists, wardens, ab, all that stuff is live.) On top of this many SVN changes bleed through to these boards (I'm sure the corruptor and summoner SVN changes have both been mentioned on the forums).

So while I know not everyone knows about every buff on the SVN comments like

"I would really like focusing more on class that are unwinnable rather weakening classes that can beat the game. "

implies that underpowered classes are not getting the attention they deserve which I really don't feel is the case.

[ohioastro]

Some suggestions of changes to Anorithil class:

1. Make Jumpgate top tier talent if it's not going to be amended
2. Reduce damage of Shadowblast by about 10-20% and reduce the max duration by 1 or 2
3. Reduce effect of Hymn of Perseverance by about 30% (so it caps at around 55-60, rather than 85)
4. Change Hymn of Moonlight to only drain Negative energy when it fires a bolt (like Corona)
5. Make Circle of Blazing Light and Twilight Surge unusable whilst Darkest Light is active (otherwise they can be abused)
6. Change Darkest Light energy transfer to scale from 4 down to 2 rather than 5 down to 1
7. Make Chant of Light increase lite on char
8. Make Bathe in Light light up the affected tiles
9. Swap Sun Flare and Sunburst around in talent tree (Sun Flare is much better)

Some of these affect Sun Pallies as well, of course, but not as much.

There was some discussion in another thread about not making Neg/Pos energy naturally decrease. This might be nice, since at the moment the effect just makes you cast a few searing lights whilst exploring, and doesn't affect battle itself. However perhaps something that would be interesting in addition to this is making the maxes affect skill usage. ie. You can't cast Searing Light if you are near the maximum of your Positive bar, nor Twilight Surge if near the Negative maximum. This means there's an extra thing to consider when balancing the resources, and reduces the archmage style of cycling through the spells going bam bam bam. It would also stop one maxing out the light bar constantly, since it restricts your ability to use light-based spells.

Again, this mechanic would affect Sun Paladins too. However it's simply replacing one restriction (resource decay) with another restriction (strict resource maximum). The latter I think is more interesting.

This is far too many changes at once, almost all of them weakening the class. Come on. This is currently a fun control class; what is the justification for weakening it? Properly played, jumpgate isn't something that gets a lot of use. Sun Flare is important in class development (a decent panic button ability.)

However, the biggest issue for me isn't rank ordering the abilities in power. Getting useful abilities early helps players, especially new ones, actually learn how to use them. Very few characters reach the higher levels, so I'd very strongly discourage moving the "best" ones to the top of the trees.

What's appropriate for top tier abilities isn't utility (e.g. blind and teleport). You want things that matter for the high level game - like dealing with opponents with 1000+ HP and deadly status-altering abilities. The class would benefit more if the later abilities added something like burst damage ability, or new options which are appropriate for higher level content. A possible tradeoff is that there are almost too many ways to disable foes - the anorithil way is steady AE damage attacks combined with incapacitating numerous opponents. You might have a viable class if you upped the damage and the danger in tandem.

Seriously, this class is a unique style in roguelikes, enjoyable, and far less prone to imbalances than the other ones I've run up to higher levels. It's not crippled either (like all of the current pet and rogue classes.) Don't move all the things that make the class fun to levels where few people will see them; it's bad enough that you need a 30+ character to even unlock it.