Chart of the survival rate of each class (ohh pretty stats!)

[darkgod]

I did a few requests in the database to grab some interesting data.

The following images show for each class how many characters there are in the character's vault with at least a given level (I put a level checkpoint every 5 levels).

We can see many interesting things with this values/graph. Like that cursed have it rought at the start but once a point is passed the numbers hardly dwindle at all, or that archmages start very high but have a much higher mortality rate than zerkers and so on.

[Canderel]

Please remove the l1 part... It's a nice to know, but it is not important, and makes it hard to see the other stats.

[darkgod]

Err no, it gives scale to the others

[madmonk]

Agreed it does give scale to the others so do not remove it.

Something to remember here is that a lot of these classes need to be unlocked so the more accurate data are the base classes that are present at the start. Of course it does not destroy the validity of what you are showing, DG, it makes for interesting reading!

What is of particular interest is the transition from level to level in the graph. So it is the gradient of the curve presented that is crucial.

There has been some discussion around the Berserker/Cursed classes being easy... The graph shows that this is true for the Cursed class but may not be so for the Berserker class. By that I mean that the gradient for the respective graphs shows that it is easier to survive as a Cursed than a berserker (or any other class).

I would be interested in a more granular representation in a line graph rather than a bar chart to see if there are other trends that are present amd to confirm the view that the Cursed class is an easier class to play.

Thanks, DG, very interesting!

[Marcotte]

Err no, it gives scale to the others

But why not scale all the others based on it?
i.e.: plot (# of characters of level > N) / (total # of characters) instead.

Another interesting statistic would be to have the average level at which one die, if they have survived to at least level N. (Simply the average level for characters whose levels is at least N.) That would give a good indication of how survivable classes are at high level versus low level.

[lintofdeath]

Being apparently one of only 15 or fewer people to have taken a Cursed to level 50 since the vault came online (woah ), here are my thoughts about the class and why these graphs definitely do not tell the whole story:

1. From my personal experience, yeah, Cursed definitely has a rough time at the start. Killing Bill was a HUGE challenge in b19, especially for Cursed, and that is probably where a lot of the data comes from. Bill is really the big obstacle there, because you're basically pitting two melee battering rams against each other and, well, it's obvious who's going to come out of that alive. I can't judge how much easier Bill is in b20b, but no doubt in my mind that you have to be either unusually shrewd or lucky to get past him.

2. Cursed is definitely easier at higher levels compared to earlier ones. It gets easier and easier to put everyone within 3 squares under Gloom, and most important is the life draining aspect of it. Get enough monsters around you and you can put a drinking bird on the mouse button for as long as you need and walk away.

However, this is the key to why statistics like these can be misleading:

3. To my knowledge, the Cursed is the only one with a talent with the sole purpose of leveling faster: the XP boost. I would say that is the key reason why the Cursed has not only the most level 50s, but the least dropoff-by-level. Get far enough to grab the xp boost and the Cursed will simply be a much higher level at the same amount of progress compared to any other class. In b19, I got my Halfling Cursed to level 50 by killing the Master! That's also the only character I've gotten that far with, so I don't know what level range is expected.

edit: One thing I do find fascinating about that chart is just how unpopular the Slinger is compared to every other starting class. I wonder why it's grabbing so little attention?

[Freddybear]

The occasional Gloom hit will cause Bill to miss a step when you're pillar dancing him, which gives you that critical opportunity to hit the regen infusion without eating Bill's club. You can then resume the pillar dance and try to hit him when you're fully regen'ed. Since he won't have regen himself in b20+ you can slowly whittle him down. Other weak melee characters like wyrmics or arcane blades don't have that luxury and Bill's missteps are not as common for them, though they do happen. It takes a *long* time to wear him down with nothing but an iron battleaxe and two points in Weapon Combat.

[TheRani]

edit: One thing I do find fascinating about that chart is just how unpopular the Slinger is compared to every other starting class. I wonder why it's grabbing so little attention?

Two main reasons:

Reason 1: People like Piercing Arrow more than Eye Shot. Being able to hit a whole hallway full of enemies at once is a much more efficient use of your stamina than being able to blind one guy for a few turns. Sure, Eye shot might help you out by blinding that skeleton mage, but you know.. Flare does that, too. And it blinds the guys next to him, too. And lights dark places.

Reason 2: Bow damage benefits from Dexterity and Strength (better carrying capacity, better armor to wear) while Sling damage benefits from Dexterity and Cunning (the tree with trap detection). Sure, a Slinger can still invest in Strength, and they could even use that Strength to equip shields. It will help their defense, but ultimately do nothing helpful for their damage.

So basically, Bow tree> Sling tree, and Str > Cun.

Then of course, there's the coolness factor. There are more famous heroes who specialized in bows than in slings.

[Karzon]

Thoughts from another Cursed winner (who tried that class simply *because* of the other winners): Cursed are built for survival and straightforward fights, damage/utility not so much. So early on, when their health pools are lower, they don't do so well (especially with the negative to resist all that they get at low hate before maxing unnatural body). They lack any sort of on-demand status effect (knockback, stun, confuse, etc - only the chance of automatic status effects from gloom). Actually, with the new changes to Rush and the new fighter tree, I think other melee classes will be pretty far ahead of them in terms of mobility as well - possibly enough to even out these statistics quite a bit. Another early problem is simply hitting enemies at all! And if they can't kill things pretty fast, they don't get enough hate to power their attacks.

I think another reason for the high stats: They're much faster to play! Due to the way the hate mechanic works, they're actually built to avoid downtime between fights through health regeneration (no need to rest or use some complicated/long-cooldown ability to gain their resource back). The damage modifiers on their attacks are low enough that they can get by through most fights fine with regular attacks as long as they watch their health. So it's harder to lose attention and do something stupid (see below). Interestingly, while they're completely helpless against long fights with single enemies due to their resource (the earlier bosses come to mind, especially before the b20 rune nerf), they're actually happier against bosses and regular enemies alike if they bring along weak enemies that they can finish off for health hate and speed just when they need it. There were a few bosses that absolutely would have killed me if they didn't summon or spawn near other enemies. Overall though, the difficulty of playing a cursed has felt more *right* than the other classes. I'm not a good player, and if they're too easy for some, I'll say that's what I actually needed.

The sheer number of different buttons you have to press/rotate between has actually pushed me away from playing some of the other classes - if I don't have a zero cooldown attack I can set to the mouse button and spam (ie melee attack, shoot, channel staff) or have to do something besides fight/rest/fight to keep up a resource (wilder/divine/chronomancy classes), I get bored of fights with every minor little enemy that gets in my way and smash my head into a monster until one of us breaks. This is a long game, and that recent ~25% damage nerf only made it that much longer. I have problems with my hands and being able to do everything like that (especially with a mouse) makes it a lot easier on me.

Suggestions related to the above:
-I'm hoping for the ability to set the left mouse button or a hotkey to either rotate between attacks, or choose between them under a priority system: If flame is on cooldown, use lightning instead, etc.
-I really see no point to negative/positive energy draining between fights, since you can just press a low-cooldown button to get it back - it's not a tactical decision so much as a drain on your attention. You could still let them drain when enemies are in view though.
-Maybe the "rest" command should assume that you'll use abilities like twilight, meditation, and the chronomancy equivalent while you're resting and simply slowly restore all resources besides hate and energy, even if it takes much longer? Otherwise you're just passing time for your recovery abilities to come back, hitting another button, and possibly resting again after.

[edge2054]

Not to derail the thread but resting until paradox was recovered automatically isn't a good idea. After playing my TW up to level 30 I can say that once I got the Rune of the Rift I rarely would start a fight under 400 paradox and this was by choice. Paradox Mages with the Paradox Mastery talent and high Willpower might decide to play the same way. Paradox isn't just a resource, it's a tactical decision. Sure it goes up with every spell you cast but starting the fight with 200 or 300 Paradox might not be what people choose to do because your spell effects scale up and down with that Paradox score.

I realize it can be annoying to have to rest repeatedly to get things where you want them which is why yufra suggested the spacetime tuning ability.

Meditation cooldown could probably be lower though and I agree about Positive and Negative energy 100%. It draining when you rest just means you end each rest cycle with a searing light + twilight combo and then go on your way, which isn't fun.

[gruevy]

Can we get a list of percentages of characters that make it to level 10, 20, 30, and 50? It looks like, as a percentage, far more anorithils make it to 50 than any other class.

[Grey]

Mindslayers and corruptors both beat anorithils for that, though it could be due to anomalous data (there's only one person that got a corruptor past level 25, and he went all the way to the end).

[gruevy]

Ya, looks like you're right. Judging simply from this graph, berserkers and cursed aren't really overpowered, but there are some severly underpowered classes out there.

[darkgod]

And the same table with percents

[Grey]

Well, not sure what your target would be, but the typical survival rate in roguelikes is probably on the order of 1 in 1,000.

Still, the stats aren't totally relevant. Corruptors appear high because few people play them, but one person managed to get very far. Cursed appear relatively low because so many die young - they're ratio of L50/L10 is far higher than any other class.