Talent Trees - a review

[madmonk]

Hi

There seems to have been a deal of fuss recently and numerous comments on talent trees and how useless/ineffective/etc they are for some classes.

So I thought we should discuss this and what we can do to revamp/enhance and so on.

Here are some ideas, and of course, I hope you can contribute ideas and thoughts too!

Structure

Each class has access to a number of trees at the start both class-specific and generic.

How many class-specific trees should be unlocked at the start (for each class). Think of this as an average number rather than a locked in number (although that too is an option)
Same goes for generic trees...

Should we allow the player to unlock this number of trees from a pre-generated list of trees at the start of the game? This would imply that locked trees could be unlocked as the game progresses. It also implies you could make your own flavour of a particular class.

Same idea goes for generic talent trees?

Anything else... on the talent tree structure

Talent trees

Some talent trees have more talents in them than others...

Should we make all talent trees have the same number of talents regardless? Or are we cool with having different numbers of talents in a tree?

A lot of talent trees are given to classes that seem to have little to no use for them, is it worth rethinking the particular talent trees that each class gets?

Talents
There are a lot of comments round particular talents in talent trees being useless and the only reason to put a point in them is to gain access to a higher talent.

I believe there is a small (very small!!!) element of truth here, but there are a lot of talents that are being ignored because people have not yet worked out how to use them! I mean no offense here by the way, I still have that problem and I think it is a good thing. It's what makes the game interesting

So which talents are in need of a re-think?
Which talents in a tree should be re-ordered in their tree to a different location in its tree?
Should we move any talents from its current tree to a new one? If so which one, where is it and where should it go.

Cheers! And I hope to have an interesting discussion!

[edge2054]

In before Finalmasters page long post. I'll update this in a bit.

[Grey]

Heh, a lot of open questions here and no real specifics...

I think at some point before we move out of beta each class needs a specific focus. We need each class to feel rounded and complete, with multiple playstyles for each. They don't need to be balanced, but they do need to feel thought out. A problem in some areas is that talents have been shoved in to fill gaps, rather than to be of use or to fit in with other trees in the class. Another big problem is bad scaling of talents, or talents that are just downright useless, especially as the runes/infusions have set new standards of power in certain areas.

Perhaps we should consider having certain weeks dedicated to playing certain classes or groups of classes? If we're all playing them and having a feel for them at the same time, commenting on how they fair at different stages in the game, comparing talent choices etc... Could be fruitful. I think recent focus on Berserkers, Anorithils, Sun Paladins and Arcane Blades has helped each class tremendously. Alchemists are getting some nice improvements in the next beta, and possibly Summoners too. Let's make sure we're happy with these and have a close look at the others.

Key problems I see in a lot of talent trees:

* Skip-over talents - you put one point in them just to get to the higher ones
* Ignored talents - ones at the top of the tree that you don't touch because they're not worth getting
* One-point wonders - invest a single point in it just for the base effects

In each of these areas there are sub-types of difficulty. One-point wonders are often because the talents scale badly with talent level, or sometimes because the initial effects are so strong (Invisibility for instance, and many of the attack talents that only increase in damage). These can be fixed by weakening the initial effects and providing further bonuses at higher talent levels. For instance Invis could mask allies within range x at level 3, and cover light sources at level 5.

I think there's a few high-end talents that are perhaps not worth using due to drain effects. The final hymn for Anorithils especially strikes me as being too dangerous to take. Anyone used it to good effect? Same with the lightning sustain that sends out bolts. These spells seem to have piddling effects for a huige resource drain. We should make sure anything draining a resource is doing it for a good reason, that there are tactical ways to manage this without makingthe effect cheap, and that the effect is worth using considering all the risks and hassle.

Every talent that does something similar to a rune/infusion needs to be looked at to make sure it balances well or offers something unique. That means all the shields, all healing abilities and the manasurge talent. We also need to look at which talents should be instant-action - not too many obviously, but many talents with short-term effects are just not worth the turn to activate.

Scaling is a huge problem. Unfortunately it's not that easy to see immediately either... The code doesn't make it too clear how things scale with level and stats. Would be nice if there was an easy way of looking through the talents and seeing how effective they are with varying stats and talent level.

[edge2054]

The final Anorithil Hymn can proc Corona. Aside from that It doesn't seem all that great.

[madmonk]

Quite correct, I was deliberately vague knowing that a lot of you have good ideas that we should consider and use... I agree by the way on your statement that each character class should feel rounded and complete.

I also agree very much with the idea around have a class to concentrate on. I will action this shortly as Class of the Week!

So splitting your post into 3

Structure

You don't seem to have any major niggles here...

Talent Trees

You don't seem to have any major niggles here...

Talents

Lots of issues here which is pretty much in line with comments elsewhere.

To summarise:

Key problems I see in a lot of talent trees:

* Skip-over talents - you put one point in them just to get to the higher ones
* Ignored talents - ones at the top of the tree that you don't touch because they're not worth getting
* One-point wonders - invest a single point in it just for the base effects

Scaling - would asking a Dev to publish the scaling effects on the Wiki be of help?

[shwqa]

I have been playing an Anorithil, so I'll give my quick review and suggestion of them. These of suggestions are just off the top of my head, feel free to disagree.

Chant
First off this tree give nice passive but you can only pick one skill to use and it is a easy choice.

-Chant of Fortitude
Saves are useless right now but I hear there are plans to make them better. Perhaps add in mental save to make it slightly better
- Chant of Fortress
Sounds pretty good but compared to chant of resistance is useless. Add in another resist such as light or arcane.
-Chant of Resistance
Awesome. easy 20+% on all elements
-Chant of Light
Light spells aren't that damaging and this isn't going to make them better than dark spells. Give a small percent increase healing.

Light
These all work well and scale well. Keep as is

Sun
This is difficult because sun paladin and anorithil both have this talent tree. It is slightly on the weak side but fuels the positive energy.

-Searing Light
Mostly like the most used spell of the tree. However it doesn't do a lot of damage, has a highish cool down, and isn't a beam. Beam at talent level 4 would make the skill worth upgrading and make it much more useful

- Sun Flare
Insanely useful.

- Firebeam
Not that good. Nice for when enemies are immune to your main damages but that isn't often for Anorthil and a wand does a better job. Give it an increasing range with talent levels

-Sunburst
I only have level 1 in this but it is not that good. The damage doesn't seem to scale well. I would like to see it daze enemies

Glyph
Haven't tried them because they don't seem to be worth my time. Very short range, require set up, don't do good effects.

Twilight

-Twilight
A must have. Only need 1 or 2 points is all it needs. Perhaps make it more effects at higher talent levels.

-Jumpgate
Overpowered.

-Mind Blast
Seems awesome, though I can't seem to make it work that often.

-Shadow Simulacrum
Never used it but it sounds good

Star Fury
The main damage of the class. It is awesome. Keep as is

Hymns
Same thoughts as chant. Clearly perseverance is the best. They are all pretty decent save for moonlight

-Moonlight
Increase negative energy cost (50+), lower damage slightly, remove continuous drain.

Circles
Circles are pretty good. You need to be close to the enemy but Sanctity and Warding will save your life.

-Shifting Shadows
This is horrible. Hurts yourself and the benefit isn't even good. Make it not hurt you, gain negative energy, give archer defense, and armor.

- Blazing Light
This is ok but not great. Have it increase light damage and healing

Eclipse
Amazing talent tree. My only problem is that Corona doesn't allow for repeat targeting against single targets.

[edge2054]

I have been playing an Anorithil, so I'll give my quick review and suggestion of them. These of suggestions are just off the top of my head, feel free to disagree.
Twilight

-Twilight
A must have. Only need 1 or 2 points is all it needs. Perhaps make it more effects at higher talent levels.

Twilight scales with cunning and talent level. The higher your cunning is the more you'll get back from each talent point invested.

Circles
Circles are pretty good. You need to be close to the enemy but Sanctity and Warding will save your life.

-Shifting Shadows
This is horrible. Hurts yourself and the benefit isn't even good. Make it not hurt you, gain negative energy, give archer defense, and armor.

Defense will protect against ranged attacks too. Ranged Defense is limited base Defense is not. Also I just tested this and it didn't hurt my character. If you can get it to hurt your character again it's a bug and I'd appreciate an stdout and it being posted in the bug forums.

Also, I considered having it give you negative energy but frankly thought that would make it to good.

- Blazing Light
This is ok but not great. Have it increase light damage and healing

And this is your negative energy when combined with Twilight. Circle of Blazing light means you don't have to use other positive energy spells midfight. Just drop this and you're good to go. I could see it increasing Light damage though but there's already a chant for that and I wanted something the class was lacking.

Eclipse
Amazing talent tree. My only problem is that Corona doesn't allow for repeat targeting against single targets.

It'd be overpowered if it could hit a foe more then once. Granted, if you position yourself right it will hit an enemy multiple times even if the projectile is aimed at someone else. Also this talent makes Hymn of Moonlight a lot more interesting.

Thanks for the feedback though Really report that Shifting Shadows bug if it crops back up, I couldn't reproduce it.

[Final Master]

I have recently put up a rather lengthy break down of all the talents available to a fighter at birth, located here - http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=4 ... 70#p100570

[shwqa]

I have been playing an Anorithil, so I'll give my quick review and suggestion of them. These of suggestions are just off the top of my head, feel free to disagree.
Twilight

-Twilight
A must have. Only need 1 or 2 points is all it needs. Perhaps make it more effects at higher talent levels.

Twilight scales with cunning and talent level. The higher your cunning is the more you'll get back from each talent point invested.

Indeed but Twilight is so effective at talent level 1 or 2 there is no need to waste class points on it. I get 112 negative points from my talent level 2.8 and 83 cunning. Consider I only got about 200 negative points total that is plenty .

[edge2054]

Ahh.. I see what you're saying, maybe at higher talent levels it should give a bonus of some kind after use.

[Grey]

Yeah, some sort of higher bonus for Twilight would be nice, even if it's just temporary Light and Darkness resistance.

It would also be good if Hymn of Detection gave invis and stealth detection. At the moment it's not worth using at any point. With some stealth detection it would at least be situationally useful.

[darkgod]

I gave hymn of detection some stealth & invis detection

[Grey]

Perhaps the Hymn of Perseverance needs taking down to about two thirds of its current effect. I thought the new spellpower adjustments might need it, but they haven't had any effect. At the moment it's such a no-brainer talent to get.

I think the top level hymn should only drain energy when actually casting a bolt (like Corona). Possibly it should be swapped into tier 3 to encourage more use of it too.