ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Hi all!

I just downloaded and tried the beta5 version and i would like to make some remarks on
the new "combatTalentLimit" scaling changes.

This affects many classes, but i mainly play with chronomancers and archmage so i just checked these classes a bit deeper.
In case of some talents, it have a significant, serious effect.
I will write in bold, where i think the effect is significant.

PARADOX MAGE

Gravity:
1., Gravity Locus
a, conversion from 13-45% to 10-40%
b, projectile slow from 16-55% to 10-50%
c, anti-gravity chance from 24-80% to 10-75%

2., Gravity Well
the global speed reduction from 12-33% down to 10-30%

Matter:
1., Matter Weaving
the stun & bleed resists were lowered from 19-56% down to 15-50%

2., Disintegration
the chance for a strip has lowered from 17-42% down to 10-40%
this means you will put 3 instead of 2 points in this most likely

Speed Control:
1., Time Stop
the cooldown from 42-23 to 45-25
and the duration from 1,2,2,3,3 to 1,1,2,2,3
so, instead of capping at 4, now it caps at tlvl 5 and adventurers cannot get the 3 turn

Time Travel:
1., Echoes from the Past
the % based damage from 22-43% to 20-40%

Flux:
1., Reality Smearing
the damage conversion ratio from 0.79-0.36 to 0.9-0.45
this one will result a significant increase in paradox increase if someone is taking damage

2., Twist Fate
the cooldown from 16-8 to 21-9
this means, you will want 3 instead of 2 point in this

Spellbinding:
all the %’s of the 4 talents
Empower & Quicken from 15-57% to 10-50%
Extension & Matrix from 7-28% to 5-25%
The % chance drops do not look significant at first glance, but because of rounding, they are

Fate Weaving:
1., Seal Fate
the chance of the extension trigger from 17-42% to 10-40%

2., Webs of Fate
the % of the transferred damage from 12-33% to 10-30%

Spacetime Weaving:
1., Wormhole
the radius of the accuracy from 4,2,2,1,1 to 4,3,2,2,2
so the talent is capped at lvl3 now, there is no reason to have it at lvl 4-5
this is significant: wormhole cannot get the 1 tile accuracy now

Energy:
1., Energy Absorption
the number of talents it affects from 1,2,2,3,3 to 0,1,2,2,3
so it does nothing at lvl 1

Survival:
1., Device Mastery
the cooldown reduction of items from 13-46% to 6-34%
this is a significant nerf to any device mastery user in the game


TEMPORAL WARDEN

Blade Threading:
1., Blade Ward
the % to trigger from 13-32% to 10-30%

Bow Threading:
2., Arrow Threading
the paradox reduction from 1.84 – 7.95 to 1-7

Temporal Guardian:
1., Guardian Unity
the HP% to trigger from 26-13% to 30-15%
the HP% reduction from 27-64% to 20-60%

2., Vigilance
the % chance to trigger from 13-32% to 10-30%

3., Warden’s Focus
the crit % & crit power from 13-32% to 10-30%

Temporal Combat:
1., Weapon Folding
the chance to trigger from 13-32% to 10-30%

2., Invigorate
the duration from 4-8 to 3-8

3., Weapon Manifold
the chance to trigger from 13-32% to 10-30%

Threaded Combat:
1., Warden’s Call
the % chance to trigger from 33-52% to 30-50%
the damage penalty from 36-17% to 40-20%

Temporal Hounds:
1., Temporal Hounds
the cooldown from 35-14 to 46-16
the % of inherited resistances from 9-28% & 38-100% to 8-25% & 30-100%

2., Temporal Vigour
the global speed buff from 24-54% to 20-50%
the immunities from 19-56% to 15-50%

3., Command Hounds: Breathe
the temporal affinity from 19-56% to 15-50%


Combat Training:
1., Light Armour Training
the fatigue reduction from 6-21% to 5-18%

So, Warden just got minor % nerfs, but a lot of them


ARCHMAGE

Pure Aether & Crystalline Focus’ resistance penetration is worse than Wildfire, Uttercold & Tempest’s resistance penetration because the former 2 using raw tlvl while the other 3 are using eff. tlvl

Arcane:
Disruption Shield got a nerf
both on the damage to mana ratio & on the max stored energy


Aether:
the cooldown of Aether Avatar has increased from 36-24 to 37-25
what looks not significant but with CD reduction it is
also the duration was decreased from 5-9 to 4-8 turns
so, the effect is less sustainable
aether build was not the strongest one before and this is a significant nerf to it


Earth:
Stone Skin had a nerf on the cooldown reduction % chance to trigger
from 51-92% to 30-90%

Stone:
Body of Stone got a nerf on the CD reduction%
this was already a weak effect (due to how it interacts with other CD reduction effects)

Conveyance:
the accuracy of Phase Door & Teleport was nerfed
Phase Door: from 5,3,2,1,1 to 6,4,3,2,2 !
so, Phase Door cannot have a 1 tile accuracy now!
it has a 2 tile accuracy what is a really big issue & nerf!

Teleport: from 19 to 14 to 19 to 15 this is not a significant one

I do not know what was intended or not.
Thanks for reading!

Yeah, I especially noticed the phase door nerf. so essentially everything with this new scaling is just a bit worse.

Telekinetic leap is now also pointless with only a single point investment, it need to a have two point investment before you can move more than one square

I also checked Psionics and i found these unitended nerfs:

Mindslayer

Absorption:
the cooldown of the 3 shield was nerfed from 14-10 to 15-11
and Force Field’s damage reduction was nerfed
from 37-68% to 30-65%

Psi Fighting:
Impale got nerfed. The chance to shatter from 34-88% to 10-85%

Focus:
Iron Will’s stun immunity from 13-46% to 10-40%
and the % to trigger a clean from 11-35% to 10-30%

Voracity:
Kinetic Leech’s slow effect
Charged Leech’s dazing chance

Kinetic Mastery:
Kinetic Surge’s range got nerfed, you need lvl 5 now for max
and also the knockback res igore % has also nerfed

Deflect Projectiles evasion from 17-45% to 15-40%

Thermal Mastery:
Transcendent Pyrokeinesis’ –> thermal leech damage reduction got nerfed
from 19-56% to 14-49%

Charged Mastery:
Transcendent Electrokinesis’ -> Cahrged Leech confusion bonus from 18-37% to 15-35%

Augmented Mobility:
Skate’s negative KB immunity from -63 to -24% to -70 to -30%

Mindhook’s cooldown from 17-10 to 18-10
and the range too
you need level 5 to cap it, instead of lvl 4

Telekinetic Leap’s range from 3,5,6,7,8 to 1,4,5,6,7
it also does “nothing” at lvl 1


Solipsist

Slumber:
Sandman’s bonuses were nerfed

Dreamscape’s duration from 7-15 to 6-14 turns

Solipsism:
Solipsism was nerfed
the damage conversion ratio from 19-56% to 15-49%
and also the converted psi damage reduction

Clarity’s threshold (and the global speed bonus) from 86-59% to 89-65%
this results in +10-35% global speed instead of +13-40%

Discharge:
Mind Storm’s overcharge ratio from 18-14 to 19-15 extra feedback

Feedback Loops’s duration from 4-10 to 3-9 turns

Focused Wrath’s duration got nerfed, you need now tlvl 5 to get max duration and not tlvl 4

Nightmare:
Inner Demon’s duration got nerfed from 4,9,11,12,12 to 2,7,10,11,12

Dreaming:
Dream Prison’s cooldown from 42-21 to 45-25
and the psi drain from 4.56-2.22% to 5-2.5%

Mentalism:
Phychometry’s material multiplier from 50%-61% to 50%-50%

Projection’s cooldown from 17-9 to 18-10

Mind Link’s cooldown from 37-10 to 45-12

Feedback:
Feedback’s decay speed and the healing got nerfed

Dreamforge:
Dreamforge’s brainlock chance from 6-30% to 5-25%


Also i noticed a "problem" with the changed % values.

Let's check an example ith Imaple's chance to trigger:

1.6.: 34%, 70%, 80%, 85%, 88%

1.7.: 10%, 60%, 74%, 81%, 85%

So, with the new change, all these talents that i mentioned (and also in my original post)
has a "less-continous" scaling. There is a big "gap" between lvl 1 & 2: 10% & 60%
So 1 pt talent level difference results in 50% effectiveness difference in a 0-100% effect!

While with the "old" "combatTalentLimit" scalings, talents were more "smooth".
They were better fine-tuned imho.

Now, i'm not an expert on this, but this looks like both, the values and the scaling of CTL talents has been generally nerfed. I am not convinced this is according to the intentions of the creators the merge request in question. I always thought the problem was that the way the talents were created were with the limit as the target to be reached eventually? But because of the function, this one could usually not get close. Not sure if this is the right way to go about it, especially if the values we get out are even further from said limit afterwards.
Now i'm not sure... but adjusting these values to mastery might be the perpetrator here. Especially the low value of device mastery might indicate some such, as it is almost never at higher than 1.0 mastery, but is treated as if it scaled with it.

Yeah it really feels like it is performing the exact opposite of what is desirable

From the new beta changelog: "Buff various talents nerfed incidentally in prior 1.7 changes. This is not buffing them in comparison to their power in 1.6, but rather returning them to 1.6 levels of strength."
Hopefully this is now fixed?

Just a dood wrote:From the new beta changelog: "Buff various talents nerfed incidentally in prior 1.7 changes. This is not buffing them in comparison to their power in 1.6, but rather returning them to 1.6 levels of strength."
Hopefully this is now fixed?

Hard to tell For example solipsism went down from 57% to 50%. Who knows if it was nerfed incidentally or not ? Right now i 1.7b6 it is still 50%.

Some talents were slightly buffed, so they are between the 1.6 & 1.7 beta5 values,
but some of the talents are still do nothing at tlvl 1, like:

Telekinetic Leap: has a range 1 at lvl 1 -> you can jump to an adjacent tile

Energy Absorption -> still affects 0 talents

Is current talent value(s) a bug of 1.7b6 is new normal ? Could some shed some light on the matter ?