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[1.7.4] weapon Psyshot small talk

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:49 am
by helminthauge
I know that there're already 3 guides here and I recommend you to read them. However the 2 previous ones are bit outdated and the other 1.7.4 one builds on caster style.
After played a bit, both on Insane difficulty and in dev mod with dummies, I discovered that Psyshot is really a ridiculous damage machine. I was able to deal 200 damage per shot just on lv14. I entered dreadfell on lv 24 and almost no rare could take more than 2 shots. In dev mod when using optimal gears, but without those super rare gun fixdarts, I can deal 20k DPT with just plain shots. If you go to see my Reaver analysis you'll see that this ranged-class can deal the same constant damage as a melee class! And those melee classes are exploiting the overpowered Flexible Combat prodigy right now. Plus Psyshot is a very tanky class with all-resist running high from early game among with a flat damage reduction and great healing. It also has one of the best teleports and the best wall talent in game.

So in short, no need to bother with Inner Demon and Waking Nightmare. Inner demons are only generated by chance, and they even block your bullets!
The following parts are assuming that your gun only shoots one bullet at a time. Plus I wonder what's the "x" in Glassgo's "1.6.x" guide. That's important because the weapon damage formula was changed in the early version of 1.6, and before the change mindstar damage is overpowered but after it's just like a normal 1H weapon, with Psiblade on.
I have tested multiple Prodigy combination, and at last I found that the best combination is Master of Disaster (lv 25) + Arcane Might (lv42). I max Dexterity, Magic, Cunning, and the rest are into Willpower. PES + Superpower is only slightly better when PES is on (difference < 10%). Giving up Willpower instead of Dexterity makes it much easier to advance talents since your Mastery requires Dexterity. Dexterity also gives great defense. With a very high Cunning and Master of Disaster you can still have very high mindpower. In early game you put points into Dexterity, Willpower (no higher than 29) and Cunning as needed, and then max Cunning, Dexterity, Magic in order.
I find the best mindstar is actually the Seeds of the Black Tree. Mostly because it deals darkness damage. There're multiple egos offering both physical and darkness damage bonus, so you can have both high bullet damage and high mindstar damage. The proc is also very nice.

For how to use class and generic points just consult other guides. Avoidance is op and a must. You'll be too lazy to use Nightmare while Dread is still OK. So you don't necessarily need Cornac as the race but additional generic trees are still welcome. Charm Mastery doesn't improve injectors anymore and Psychot already has Forced Gestalt as track, so don't bother unlocking this. BTW the current metagame favours defense instead of armor, so get Light Armor Training instead of Heavy. Psychots have plenty of general points so even a 12-point race like Shalore can be OK, and of course Shalore is powerful.

Re: [1.7.4] weapon Psyshot small talk

Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:19 pm
by LordKarasuman
While I mostly play with optimizing gun damage for Psyshot as a secondary concern, your findings seem to square up with what I've observed from other players of the class who more definitively know what they're doing on this front.

I agree with the notion that Inner Demons (and by extension Waking Nightmare if you're trying to make use of that one too) probably strictly isn't necessary. It's easier to take for a Cornac who has plenty of Class Points and an extra Cat Point to spare, and it's fairly easy to use insofar as it scales with almost any opponent and only requires being able to beat an enemy mind save. But that's a turn of setup (if necessary), a turn of applying Inner Demons, and then however many turns of actual Inner Demon spawns showing up. It is a great intrinsic backup for a Psyshot who has tremendous WIL and CUN, but in the face of actually just hitting an opponent with bullets from your gun, it pales because it's so much more unwieldier. I would argue that you take Nightmare category if you have no other way to lift a character's floor, and don't care about subsequently lowering their ceiling (since that cat point could have gone to something that would help your gun damage plan which is the real meat of Psyshot). It is a categorical, functional fallback in a class that has a ton of great tools to begin with. It's kinda funny that there are still 9-10 classes that are better than it, on that note.

As for Cunning / Survival, I agree that it doesn't do nearly as much as it used to. I don't think it's a dead category; Charm Mastery on regular items for instance, which is a consideration on every class and I don't think Psyshot is an exception. But that said, its value dwindled considerably and I don't blame anyone for either just dropping Cornac from consideration on a weapon-focused Psyshot (which is sensible, as Cornac's main value becomes only that you might get more protective sustains up earlier), taking Blacksmith, or possibly just planning around one of the Escort trees.

It sounds like you did testing on Mindstars and weren't impressed compared to GlassGo's results back in 1.6.x. Does this mean you tried the Prodigy combos that would have helped mindstar damage the most (Superpower + Master of Disasters, etc. etc.)?

Re: [1.7.4] weapon Psyshot small talk

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:25 am
by helminthauge
LordKarasuman wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:19 pm It sounds like you did testing on Mindstars and weren't impressed compared to GlassGo's results back in 1.6.x. Does this mean you tried the Prodigy combos that would have helped mindstar damage the most (Superpower + Master of Disasters, etc. etc.)?
I tested PES+Arcane Might and PES+Superpower, with corresponding stat spread. Actually in all cases the sheet damage of the bullet is 1.7-2 times of the mindstar. Bullets gets damage bonus as accuracy bonus, while mindstar gets the Psyshot bonus and after this the damage should be about the same. However physical damage bonus is much more common than nature/mind damage bonus, and there're 3 egos offering physical proc which can crit on ammos. These are what makes bullet damage greater.
I checked the dates. Glassgo's guide was on 2019.12.01, while the weapon damage change was happened in 1.6.5, on 2019.12.08. So when Glassgo wrote his guide the mindstar damage was overpowered (although that required Psiblade). Another important thing in his guide is the guns that shoot multiple bullets at a time. There're only 3 such guns, and unless you select Ogre from the start only 1 is usable, the T1 Twinblaster. If you find it in T1 dungeon of course you can go to focus on mindstar damage instead. However in that case Superpower + Arcane Might may still be better because Arcane Might only gives 10% less stat to the mindstar damage (but with this set up you don't have bonus mindpower from prodigy at all).

Plus there is no point in Superpower + Master of Disasters. Master of Disasters is only great with Arcane Might, where the weapon damage gets twice the bonus.
LordKarasuman wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:19 pm I don't blame anyone for either just dropping Cornac from consideration on a weapon-focused Psyshot (which is sensible, as Cornac's main value becomes only that you might get more protective sustains up earlier), taking Blacksmith, or possibly just planning around one of the Escort trees.
If you want high number on the dummy the best option is definitely Cornac with Scoundrel tree. However in reality probably few enemies can live long enough for the bleed to build up damage so one may want to play Shalore to shoot faster.
Cornac with Stone Alchemy may also be interesting so that one has money to get whatever ego he wants. I haven't really played to endgame after 1.5.10.

Re: [1.7.4] weapon Psyshot small talk

Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:39 am
by GlassGo
It's 1.6.7 character, I think way past mindstar nerf.

https://te4.org/characters/35987/tome/6 ... ce54f4fb0d

Re: [1.7.4] weapon Psyshot small talk

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:50 am
by helminthauge
GlassGo wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:39 am It's 1.6.7 character, I think way past mindstar nerf.

https://te4.org/characters/35987/tome/6 ... ce54f4fb0d
That's true. How did you max 4 stats, with even some points into the fifth?

Re: [1.7.4] weapon Psyshot small talk

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:56 pm
by helminthauge
GlassGo wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 7:39 am It's 1.6.7 character, I think way past mindstar nerf.

https://te4.org/characters/35987/tome/6 ... ce54f4fb0d
That ScatterMind terrifies me. I never looked into random shots closely and it really fits psyshot and especially the one with TT very good, although its weapon damage is really terrible (probably only half compared to end-game randarts). I'll test it later.
Plus I tried your stats (plus the 50 pp and 19 sp found on your equip). I didn't get the exact weapon damage as your character sheet but I think the following result are interesting:
Superpower + PES: PES(-) 83 bullet damage + 154 mindstar damage; PES(+) 100 bullet damage + 184 mindstar damage.
Disaster + PES: PES(-) 82 bullet damage + 148 mindstar damage; PES(+) 97 bullet damage + 174 mindstar damage.
Disaster + AM (removing antimagic debuff, switching str and mag stat): 103 bullet damage + 195 mindstar damage.
Again it proves that even if you want to maximize mindstar damage, the best prodigy combo is Disaster + AM.