ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Dumb question incoming!

I was playing a bulwark recently and my main gap closer was Rush. It did its job well but it was often unavailable. It also ate up a chunk of my stamina before a fight really started.

After he died I rolled up a Sun Paladin and picked up Path of the Sun for engaging. As far as I can tell the abilities are roughly analagous: Tools to enable melee characters to engage with targets who are out of range.

My question is, why is Rush so much worse? The cooldown is twice as long, the damage is single target instead of possibly being a beam, and it costs resources (whereas Path of the Sun actually gives you back positive energy). Does anyone have any ideas as to the rationale behind such an imbalance?

Why are apples so much better than oranges? A staple warrior talent with minimum distance which moves you to an opponent and applies a free attack with daze; versus a celestial spell talent which lays down an environmental effect which causes light damage and allows free movement in either direction along the path.

Poor balance considerations on new content?

I think Path of the Sun is better overall but it isn't strictly better since there are many situations where you would rather have Rush. In order to get your first attack in using Path of the Sun, you have to spend two turns; one to cast Path of the Sun and one to attack. Rush condenses this into just one turn and also dazes. Similarly Rush is nice for escaping since it works as an immediate teleport that costs you a turn after teleportation, while when Path of the Sun is used in this manner it is as if you passed a turn and then used an instant teleport.

1) "spend 2 turns". if enemy has ranged options, then yes this might be a detriment.
but against strictly melee, this is a turn BOTH of you are doing nothing. unless fully stacked sun strike.
2) "rush=immidiate teleport therefore escape"... -------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) "free attack". you can cast path of the sun somewhere, then put up a shield, and if enemy is range, you just put "counter strike" on its head.
what is this, closing takes no time because path is still active? ASSAULT!

Since recently, rush's functionality has been changed to allow it to target empty spaces and also rush there. So yes, Rush kinda is an "instant" escape now.

EDIT: Relevant patch notes from 1.4:

Updated the Rush talent to allow targeting unoccupied spots

Wording the teleport thing a little differently, they both cost a turn but Rush "teleports" you before you spend the turn which is better than Path of the Sun which "teleports" you after. Sometimes you really don't want to stand still for a turn making Path of the Sun worse for escape.

ok, i missed the "can target empty square" part.
so i was wrong about it as escape tool
that still doesn't change much in terms of a gap closer.
also, you can use the path to peak behind corners, which you cannot do with rush.

also a note.
"technically", rush is not a teleport, meaning you can use both of them in a "no teleport" zone.
on that part, they are equal.

Radon26 wrote:1) "spend 2 turns". if enemy has ranged options, then yes this might be a detriment.
but against strictly melee, this is a turn BOTH of you are doing nothing. unless fully stacked sun strike.
2) "rush=immidiate teleport therefore escape"... -------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) "free attack". you can cast path of the sun somewhere, then put up a shield, and if enemy is range, you just put "counter strike" on its head.
what is this, closing takes no time because path is still active? ASSAULT!

1) You never use either offensively unless the enemy has ranged options. You stand where you are and wait for them to come to you. So, yes, with Path you are standing around for a turn getting shot at and then move while with rush you move immediately and are in their face. Rush cannot be blocked by summoning because no time passes between choosing the rush target and movement. Path gets blocked every time you try to use it to close on a necromancer.

2) Rush can now target anywhere, making it an escape. With Rush you are out of contact with whoever you were previously fighting immediately. With Path you stand there for a turn. You can die or be pinned during that turn or if you're almost but not quite surrounded someone can step into your path.

3) Two handed paladins don't have block. Block is only useful against enemies that will make a blockable attack. I believe pure DoT effects are usually unblockable even if your shield gives resistance to them and summoning is certainly not blockable. Also, you've now spent an extra turn being shot at because neither rush nor path should ever be used to close with non-ranged opponents.

So basically you're arguing that Path of the Sun is better than Rush in circumstances where you should not be using either.

Honestly, I would be surprised if an option available to half the classes would be better than a skill that's unique for a class. Would just make the second skill hot trash.

0player wrote:Honestly, I would be surprised if an option available to half the classes would be better than a skill that's unique for a class. Would just make the second skill hot trash.

PotS has one enormous advantage for paladins: it doesn't require a category point to access. If you're not a cornac you're not getting rush before level 10. The investment curve is also nicer at the low end. Path jumps to I think 8 range at 2 points while rush needs 3 points. Since 1 point will absolutely go into Path anyways to unlock Sun's Vengeance it's a far cheaper ability and you get what you pay for.