ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

When Ogre came out I had the same idea as everyone else: Flurry with a 2H weapon in your main hand!

Some questions came up though:

1) 2H damage is no better than 1 handed weapon without +size items to reduce the damage penalty. But lets assume I can get +2 size and Legacy of the Naloren and invest in the Flurry talent to multiply the excess damage. Is the extra damage over a 1 hander worth basing a build around?

2) Marauder is a bit tight on generic points at the best of times. Are there better places for the points that would result in better damage?

I figure some of you have tried it or are experienced enough to just eyeball it and tell if it's any good. Is 2H weapon Flurry ever worth 6 generics for Ogre Marauder?

When Ogre came out I had the same idea as everyone else:

not my, i had 2hboard Spally

based on what i read, you don't get weapon damage penalty, only p/s/m "power" penalty, and procs penalty.
unless pp directly influence damage, it should not be too mach problem as long as you don't rely on procks.

pls note, whips too are supported by exotic mastery.
so if you trident whip, you can run out of a single mastery.
problem is, trident takes str, and whip takes like dex+cun, so stats may be an annoyance here.

Radon26 wrote: Based on what I read, you don't get a weapon damage penalty, only p/s/m "power" penalty, and procs penalty.
unless pp directly influence damage, it should not be too mach problem as long as you don't rely on procks.

Erm... Physical power directly influences weapon damage.

uhm... well, that would be like what, 8% of the actual damage?
not the end of the world i believe.

you have the base damage, damage mods, and then, how well does the pp translates into damage?

I want to say very well, but who knows?

EDIT: The wiki, albeit slightly out of date, still provides useful information. Power and talented_mod tend to be numbers that are around 1.000 to 2.000.
Meanwhile, totstat is the stat modifiers of your weapon added together (the little 100% strength thing on swords and stuff) and phys_power is your rescaled physical power, the number you see on your char sheet. So yes, physical power and stat modifiers make up a majority of weapon damage.

Micbran wrote:I want to say very well, but who knows?

EDIT: The wiki, albeit slightly out of date, still provides useful information.

Code: Select all

dam = 0.3 * (phys_power + totstat) * power * talented_mod

Power and talented_mod tend to be numbers that are around 1.000 to 2.000.
Meanwhile, totstat is the stat modifiers of your weapon added together (the little 100% strength thing on swords and stuff) and phys_power is your rescaled physical power, the number you see on your char sheet. So yes, physical power and stat modifiers make up a majority of weapon damage.

Assume physpower and totstats are both equal to 100, that should happen in the late game.
100 rescaled physpower means 20+40+60+80+100=300 raw power
Reducing it by 20% means it will be 240 and once rescaled 88.
But, 1h weapons generally have 100%str, and 2H weapons, 120%str.
So tostat will be 120, instead of 100.
And the damage will change from 200*k to (88+120)*k, with a gain of 8/200=4%.

Seems to be that the totstat makes up for a majority of the phys power loss. Didn't think about that.


But yes, with enough size, the powers reduction will be put at 10% (right?) and the only issue is loss of procs and you might deal less damage to heavily armored targets, due to dagger's armor pen. And I think your dagger's offhand damage will drop a little due to loss of phys power.

you can always try trident whip combo! only 1 mastery needed.
although, juggling may be a bit annoying.

10 pts in exotic weapon mastery is very powerful indeed, the only issue is getting 5 of those pts and finding a whip.

if you are going 2h, it means you will need something other than dagger mastery anyway.
so if you find a good trident, you might as well invest in the exotic, and transition fully if you find the whip.

ghostbuster wrote:

Micbran wrote:I want to say very well, but who knows?

EDIT: The wiki, albeit slightly out of date, still provides useful information.

Code: Select all

dam = 0.3 * (phys_power + totstat) * power * talented_mod

Power and talented_mod tend to be numbers that are around 1.000 to 2.000.
Meanwhile, totstat is the stat modifiers of your weapon added together (the little 100% strength thing on swords and stuff) and phys_power is your rescaled physical power, the number you see on your char sheet. So yes, physical power and stat modifiers make up a majority of weapon damage.

Assume physpower and totstats are both equal to 100, that should happen in the late game.
100 rescaled physpower means 20+40+60+80+100=300 raw power
Reducing it by 20% means it will be 240 and once rescaled 88.
But, 1h weapons generally have 100%str, and 2H weapons, 120%str.
So tostat will be 120, instead of 100.
And the damage will change from 200*k to (88+120)*k, with a gain of 8/200=4%.

Thanks both, this is useful. But where does the 20+40+60+80+100 come from?

Also, I was planning on neglecting off-hand dagger damage to save points, relying on the two hander alone to deal awesome damage while still having access to Flurry. Is that sensible?
(I'd switch to exotic late game iff I got the right escort.)

dukereg wrote:I want to say very well, but who knows?
Thanks both, this is useful. But where does the 20+40+60+80+100 come from?

Powers (and saves, defence, etc) have tiers with diminishing gains. The wiki explains that very well. See for instance http://te4.org/wiki/Character_sheet

dukereg wrote: Also, I was planning on neglecting off-hand dagger damage to save points, relying on the two hander alone to deal awesome damage while still having access to Flurry. Is that sensible?
(I'd switch to exotic late game iff I got the right escort.)

Indeed, there are two very different situations to consider.

1/ You are a 2H fighter. The ogre bonus will let you wield an extra weapon or a shield.
Your main weapon will be slightly less effective (say 5-7%), but it is more than largely compensated by the second weapon, even with 0 mastery in daggers. Your proc damage is divided by two, but you have two sources of procs, so there is balance. And you have an extra item with bonuses (with maybe phys power, str, etc, that may compensates the small damage loss).
So it il always beneficial.

But the great benefit is that you have access to several extra trees 2h+another one. The more likely is shield, and ogre zerkers, bulwarks and above all sun paladins are great for this reason. I do not think that there is a class with 2h+dual wielding, but it may also be good on an adventurer.

2/ You are a dual wielder. The ogre bonus allows you to change your main weapon for a 2H one.
In that case, you main weapon will be slightly better, but your second weapon will be worse (because of the loss in phys power). We may assume that there a balance.
But all your procs damage is divided by two, and you lose 20% spell and mind power. For a reaver, for instance, this is a drawback, and you really need to have a **great** 2H weapon for have a real gain in that situation.
So there is generally a loss. This loss is not very important, but the potential gain is always questionable and, indeed, except for adventurers that may this way gain access to the 2H trees, you should double think of it before...

Thanks, that's awesome help.

Since Marauder is balanced with 2 weapon fighting in mind, and the 2H weapon would give a lukewarm benefit even if it was free, 6 generic points would probably not be worth it.

If you like seeing big numbers then hell yes, it's worth it. Gear with +size and combat training multipliers isn't that hard to come by and can boost your dmg by loads, thanks to exotic weapon mastery's 10 base talent level if you take the prodigy.

With a Whip in your offhand this makes for loooots of damage. On the downside the generics juggling is annoying as hell.

sooo you have a 2.5 mastery. how the hell did THAT hapen?!
as far as i know, except for artefacts, only amulets can give you mastery, and they are at best 0.5.
if there are egos on other items, the masteries they give are fixed, so you can't just rng another AaWT mastery.

i smell "more mastery" addon.