ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Based off a discussion over here.

This thread is to discuss changing the requirements of many Chronomancy talent trees, with two goals in mind:

1. Make the Temporal Warden no longer depend so heavily on Willpower; and
2. Reward the Paradox Mage for investing in Willpower.

The draft proposal is to change the requirements (and scaling) of the core TW talents to Magic, and change some PM trees over to require Willpower. Specifically:

• Temporal Combat -> Magic
• Spacetime Folding -> Magic
• Spacetime Weaving -> Magic
• Chronomancy -> Magic
• Energy -> Willpower
• Paradox (high-level tree) -> Willpower

Under this arrangement, Quantum Feed becomes extraneous and can be replaced with something cool, like an attack talent that extends the duration of all negative effects and shortens the duration of all beneficial effects on the target. The Temporal Warden becomes a straightforward Dexterity+Magic class, with a buff to Strength delaying the need for Strength investment (and equipment may obviate Strength investment altogether). This leaves room for building a tertiary stat, like Constitution or Cunning. Removing Quantum Feed also frees up 100 Paradox, which (ironically) will probably do more to make the TW's casting more reliable than the Willpower reduction would cost.

For the Paradox Mage, the consequence of having two different stat requirements for the two high-level trees would be to allow two different builds: either go heavy Magic+Willpower to qualify for the Paradox tree, or delay Willpower (for Con maybe) and take Threading at level 10 instead. Both should be viable, but one is more "conservative" and the other more prone to seeing an Anomaly or two.

Thoughts?

Quantum Feed would still be good if they still use magic.

I don't think it is feasible to remove the willpower requirement from Temporal Warden.
They need to willpower to be able to cast safely. Also the stamina from the willpower is nice.
Also, Arcane Blade is already filling the str/dex+mag warrior slot.
I think Temporal Warden works reasonably well being dex+wil with str and mag as secondary. But some adjustments would be good.

Firstly the paradox costs on the sustains are too high.
Quantum Feed needs to be available earlier.
Could make Strength of Purpose work as a weapon mastery talent. That would make it easier to wield two/three weapon types and reduce the number of talent points spent in mastery talents.
Quantum Feed could also increase your effective willpower for paradox checks.

I do like the sound of an offensive Timeless and changing the paradox category to willpower.

HousePet wrote:Quantum Feed would still be good if they still use magic.

What does it add to the game to have a Magic sustain that scales with Magic?

HousePet wrote:I don't think it is feasible to remove the willpower requirement from Temporal Warden.
They need to willpower to be able to cast safely. Also the stamina from the willpower is nice.

Reducing the cost of their sustains fixes this entirely.

HousePet wrote:Also, Arcane Blade is already filling the str/dex+mag warrior slot.

That is an absurd line of argument.

HousePet wrote:Firstly the paradox costs on the sustains are too high.

Yes, the basic issue with the TW is that he needs Willpower for all his 400 Paradox + 100 Stamina sustains.

But those costs are so high primarily so Willpower feels useful. They're not inherently balanced around any opportunity cost -- every TW is expected to run all four of his sustains, all the time, unlike an Archmage who has to pick and choose.

Lowering the sustain cost will do more to allow TW spellcasting than copy-pasting Paradox Mastery.

If you use magic, then more magic is good.

I am actually suggesting the lowering of sustain costs buy Quantum Feed could be slightly more interesting.

I might be going wrong here but my assumption has been that higher paradox gives more power for many spells, right?

With PM (can't say for TW) activating all sustains at once pushes over the 300 paradox treshold that gives a power bump.

Lowered sustain costs then would decrease PM's power for his first few spells, ie. Gravity Well, which we know is essential.

I'd love a fix that wouldn't screw PM when boosting TW.


On the actual topic there's not many (just one) Willpower trees for Chronomancers. I wouldn't mind getting few more nice Wil trees for my Wil based Adventurers.

Err, none of the Temporal Warden sustains are available to Paradox Mage.

HousePet wrote:If you use magic, then more magic is good.

I am actually suggesting the lowering of sustain costs buy Quantum Feed could be slightly more interesting.

Quantum Feed exists because the TW needed to invest in Willpower at the cost of not investing in Magic. That reason is now removed. What do you feel like Quantum Feed would compensate for, if the TW is now allowed to invest in Magic directly?

With my proposed changes, I don't think there is any such thing that needs compensation. Is there?

Faeryan wrote:I might be going wrong here but my assumption has been that higher paradox gives more power for many spells, right?

Yes, but to a lesser extent than Spellpower. Giving the TW the ability to have decent Spellpower should obviate most of that, leaving high-Paradox funtimes to the PM.

HousePet wrote:Could make Strength of Purpose work as a weapon mastery talent. That would make it easier to wield two/three weapon types and reduce the number of talent points spent in mastery talents.

That could work in conjunction with http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=40582 (or maybe the flexible mastery would obviate that need).

I'd rather have a new active talent for TW than a passive or sustain, though that's just my preference.

Arcane Power gives Spellpower to a class that already has good Spellpower, and it works (at low levels). Therefore, a sustain that boosts magic on a Temporal Warden, that is going for high magic, still works (at low levels anyway).

But anyway, I see Paradox as sitting between Mana and Equilibrium. Mana being magic primary and willpower secondary. Equilibrium being willpower primary and cunning secondary. Averaging those two gives willpower primary and magic secondary.

To summarise, I agree that the class has issues, but I disagree with removing willpower for magic, I think we should remove magic for willpower instead. (and definately have that offensive version of Timeless as a talent)

To reward PM for investing in Willpower just remove spell cost increase with paradox, then they can use higher paradox threshold from willpower more efficiently as well as powered up spells.

HousePet wrote:Arcane Power gives Spellpower to a class that already has good Spellpower, and it works (at low levels). Therefore, a sustain that boosts magic on a Temporal Warden, that is going for high magic, still works (at low levels anyway).

Arcane Power is a thing Archmagi use, not Arcane Blades.

Giving a spell that's +Magic to ONLY the TW is like giving Arcane Power to ONLY the Arcane Blade, and IMHO that's breaking both the mechanical and the flavor distinction between PM and TW.

HousePet wrote:To summarise, I agree that the class has issues, but I disagree with removing willpower for magic, I think we should remove magic for willpower instead. (and definately have that offensive version of Timeless as a talent)

Willpower without Magic means:
- Arcane weapon effects won't land (because they check Spellpower)
- Rune of the Rift won't land (again, Spellpower)
- Tons of Stamina but hardly any Stamina-using talents
- Tons of Mana (if you get some Escort spells), but again not much ability to use it

It's just not a good package for a spellcaster who uses weapons.

Magic is a much, much better package for a spellcaster who uses weapons.

Nizidra wrote:To reward PM for investing in Willpower just remove spell cost increase with paradox, then they can use higher paradox threshold from willpower more efficiently as well as powered up spells.

This may be a good idea, but the implications are a bit complex, and the PM is already working pretty great from what I've seen.

Doctornull wrote:

Nizidra wrote:To reward PM for investing in Willpower just remove spell cost increase with paradox, then they can use higher paradox threshold from willpower more efficiently as well as powered up spells.

This may be a good idea, but the implications are a bit complex, and the PM is already working pretty great from what I've seen.

If not remove, then reduce it at least (maybe even with a talent/mastery)

Nizidra wrote:If not remove, then reduce it at least (maybe even with a talent/mastery)

Paradox Mastery does that already, no?

Or do you mean something in addition to Paradox Mastery?

My only thought on this is that it seems like a lot of PM talents could do a bit more damage.

I think willpower should be *more* central to a TW.
As it is, it's mostly used for talent requirements, and magic provides a better effect for your stat points.
If paradox were to be changed to be more willpower-focused, it would make wil a good choice for both TW and PM.

. . .

Off the top of my head:

greater change to damage output from higher paradox
- related idea: another power bonus that scales with failure/anomaly/backfire rates

a more obvious change in my paradox control from 'small' willpower increments (like stat points)
- example: the +400 effective willpower from Temporal Form makes a difference. The 50wil from 50 stat points? Invisible.
- idea: reduce the willpower boost from Temporal Form and some other Fixed Artifacts, and increase the effect of willpower over paradox