ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Since the ammo system has been changed so radically, I thought I'd give some loose feedback based on the development of my skeleton archer as well as my impressions from my first time in the orc prides before delving deeper into the ammo issue:

- for the first ~24 levels the class felt very, very easy, about a 2 out of 10. I've played almost every class in the game to level 20 in the past few months, and the skellie archer is easily the least complicated and most consistently powerful out of all of them. Hit aim, alternate steady shot and the basic shoot command (I didn't even realize that Dual Arrows was worth using until I'd already reached the East) -> dead boss. I never even came close to losing an escort.
I completed the entire West using no other active talents but Aim, Steady Shot, Shoot, Volley of Arrows and Scatter Shot, and about two uses of Relaxed Shot total. Nothing else was necessary.

- The racial shield was so good that there was no pressing need for armour or escape options (although 1 point is disengage was a useful talent for exactly one encounter - the Weirdling Beast in its teleport-proof lair) until I hit the Daikara. From that point onward, I carried two teleport runes until controlled phase door became available. General observation: dual teleport runes are an extremely good escape option for archers in general. Unless you are caught on a very small map - I think the scripted Ambush is the first of those - they'll see you through 99.9% of all encounters. If both runes cannot get you away from an unbeatable pack of enemies, chances are that the map is extremely lethal regardless of your escape options -> see: Dark Crypt

- until about level 20, store bought ammo and weapons were very useful (purely because they let me get the Thaloren ego ASAP), while the things I found in the wilderness were completely unremarkable. Since unique bow egos like the Corpsebow's damage proc are currently completely bugged, there was't a single noteworthy artifact bow or quiver in the entire game.

- the usual speed bump at the Dark Crypt/Dreadfell 9 also slowed my archer down a bit; the damage was slightly too low to compensate for the lack of a decisive answer to enemy spellcasters who could cast their spells before my Scatter Shot projectile could reach them. I nearly died once in the Dark Crypt fighting six blood mages at once; however, I don't think most of my other characters would even have survived that. I'd rate the difficulty for the 24-29 level range at a 3 out of 10.

- the ambush was trivial, even though I had absolutely no intention of beating it when I went in; aim, scatter shot (at talent level 4), volley of arrows (talent level 1), steady shot at the boss, controlled phase door, a few more shots at the lucky survivors, done. I'd only "beaten" the ambush with a save scumming alchemist before, so the ease of this performance was a revelation to me.
The boss dropped the stupendously powerful Ring of the War Master when I had 300 hp left; getting to the ring meant taking an orc arrow in the face and losing a life, but it was worth it. This was the last time I even got close to death.

- Getting from level 30 to 40 was a blur. Having Aim and Steady Shot at 1.60 talent mastery meant that nothing could even come near me, but I doubt it would have been much more difficult without the ring. I usually had 5 or 6 class points in the bank, because I never got a chance to use most of my talents. The Tannen fight was the only encounter that was even remotely challenging, since I put down my Aim right next to the golem and was too stubborn to move when I realized how the fight was meant to be done. I lost two of my three shields before I killed Tannen with AoEs.

- The Prides basically threw physical damage increase items at me; by the time I had finished the last one, I was reliably inflicting 1600 to 2800 damage per shot with 114% crit chance. No boss lived longer than five turns. I spent my two spare cat points just before High Peak, but I shouldn't have bothered; nothing in there even came close to touching me. I used the slowing shot once when I was battle called, but I didn't make much of a difference. The so-called "end bosses" were a joke, and I got the Tactical Master achievement without even realizing that the portals were meant to be a threat. I'd rate the difficulty of lvl 30-50 at 0 out of 10.

Total game time was 25 hours doing virtually everything that class/race combo can do except for farming farportals or engaging Atamathon. I imagine I could cut this down significantly now that I know what the East is like (really easy).

Notes on the ammo mechanics:

- the most valuable bow ego is "Thaloren"; -1 reduction is Steady Shot cooldown means that you can use it every other turn while in aim mode, as opposed to every third turn. In the first twenty levels, when you can only afford to max out one or two direct damage talents, this is incredibly powerful. Later in the east, it is just plain old powerful; 99% of all battles will be over before anybody even manages to get close to you, so an extra use of Steady Shot makes little difference.

- the second most important feature of a bow or quiver is a speed boost; a +200% boost either on the ammo or on the bow was essential to get anything done at all. Going for the full +400% boost by getting matching egos on both bow and quiver served me well in the early game, but became completely unimportant around level 40; the AoEs were enough to finish off anything that had managed to dodge my arrows.

- Leading things with arrows is fun; calculating a flight path and clicking one square behind a target you suspect of retreating adds tactical challenge to the otherwise trivial high level gameplay.

- range and physical damage multiplier of bows increase naturally as you gain access to better tiers. This is what a run-of-the-mill endgame bow looks like:



I don't know what the archer endgame was like before this beta, but having 11 range on your attacks is totally ludicrous. In the endgame I could do over 6000 damage to most melee enemíes before they could even get within rushing distance.

- I really like the reloading mechanic; it felt like a tactical challange for the first few levels, then became practically meaningless when self-reloading quivers came about. The monstrous damage per arrow was also quite helpful. My end-game quiver only had 13 arrows in it, but I never had to reload during the final fight.

I know that Archers were considered stupidly overpowered before b38; this has not changed. Some of the other archer winners hit 1500 damage per attack as early as level 30, which leads me to believe that the damage curve for this class has been slightly flattened; however, I still stomped everything the game threw at me past the Master. I'm not sure if that's a desirable difficulty curve, but it sure was a lot of fun.

Forgot something quite important: the limited arrow speed means that you can take a long-range, low speed bow, lead an overpowered opponent down a corridor, and manually shoot arrows down the hall at the farthest possible spot until the enemy comes into view (ideally you should have sight range 11, with seems to be the highest bow range). Then, flee down the corridor and enjoy 2-4 projectiles from Steady Shot, Dual Arrows, etc. etc. hitting your opponent for a few thousand damage without you ever getting into any sort of danger - a bit like alchemist bombs, only with higher damage. Combine that with the two pinning/crippling shots, and the game should be pretty easy most of the time.

If you do this with scatter shot, you can hit something at 14 range and move an additional 3+ tiles away while the projectile is moving. That's not half bad.

I've just started trying archers and I'm having some difficulty with early bosses (from Bill the troll to the one in the Rhaloren Camp). I'm level 11 now I think; it's possible I should have gone straight to maxing steady shot and not doing so is hurting me. I did manage to grab a Thaloren bow in a shop but it doesn't have a speed modifier, and this occasionally gives me fits.

@ peacedog: I think Piercing Arrow and Dual Arrows are good investments. Piercing helps you take down enemies in corridors, and Dual costs no stamina to use in addition to dealing extra damage and potentially hitting twice. Steady Shot is good but ultimately it's just damage with no utility. I'd raise Aim over Steady Shot since Aim gives you a lot of bonuses in addition to extra damage, and it's instant. Definitely look for bows with speed modifiers, the increase in damage per game turn is huge.

bricks wrote:@ peacedog: I think Piercing Arrow and Dual Arrows are good investments. Piercing helps you take down enemies in corridors, and Dual costs no stamina to use in addition to dealing extra damage and potentially hitting twice. Steady Shot is good but ultimately it's just damage with no utility. I'd raise Aim over Steady Shot since Aim gives you a lot of bonuses in addition to extra damage, and it's instant. Definitely look for bows with speed modifiers, the increase in damage per game turn is huge.

How would you rank speed modifiers, range, and the Thaloren (sp?) ego? My first archer attempt wound up with a solid thaloren bow but it was ranged 6 and no speed, and I think I was suffering for that.

I'm unclear on how to stat up. I realized I was pumping dex - and you need to do some of that, obviously - but I should probably be putting more in strength. Enough dex to get the talents I need/use the bows I want but make strength the priority otherwise?

Also, I've been rushing to get cripple shot and pinning shot ASAP, as well as getting a point in piercing shot. I guess my next try will work something like this:

1. Max Aim first.
2. Get to 3 points in bow mastery just for the reload bonus (but not necessarily right away; just at some point in the first 10 levels).
3. Get Piercing Shot, Crippling shot, and Pinning shot.
4. Start getting the AoE shots when I can; Dual Arrows (which you can get quickly), Volley, and the other one whose name escapes me (scatter shot?).

Maybe I'll max piercing first of all the shots, or one of the AoEs.

Generic points I'm just getting armor training 4 then going for Weapon Training/a little accuracy. Racials where appropriate.

Range is important but you can get by without it until you get to some of the larger or more open areas (which makes Scintillating Caves dangerous, as always). Thaloren is a tough choice over speed. Having an attack speed that is even slightly faster than the average monster's movement speed is very useful, and it also was a good way to counteract the effects of Aim. The rapid-fire sustain (not sure on name) might be a much better investment now, especially if you pick up a cool arrow ego.

As far as stat investment goes, I'm not really sure. With Skeleton it's kind of a no-brainer (horrible pun not intended), and I'm not that clever a player anyway. :)

Don't have skeleton unlocked yet, alas. I will prioritize speed then.

One other question: if both a bow and quiver have listed damage do both apply to the arrow?

peacedog wrote:Maybe I'll max piercing first of all the shots, or one of the AoEs.

Piercing Arrow is only useful in some starter areas, the Old Forest, and a few rare occasions later on. Early on, the stamina is often better spent on Steady Shot, which is useable a lot more often and has a much better damage/stamina ratio.

My endgame character does 258% damage for 9.84 stamina to one target with StS, and could do somewhere around 165% damage for 18.45 stamina with PA (the "infinite armour penetration" doesn't matter at all if you use Aim anyway). You need to hit at least 3 targets with your PA to match the efficiency of StS - and if you're in that type of situation, you should use Scatter Shot first. You're going to put one point in PA fairly soon anyway, but any more is a huge waste.

The huge damage and very, very long stun make Scatter Shot the second best skill your arsenal - I'd rather play a game without Bow Mastery, Piercing Arrow, or Volley of Arrows before I'd give up Scatter Shot.

(btw, Volley of Arrows is also a huge ammo eater, and I hate the fact that I can't easily tell which of my targets will be hit by how many arrows. It does a good job in high range combat though.)

bricks wrote:Steady Shot is good but ultimately it's just damage with no utility.

..which is a winning combination if you kill everything in one or two turns. I never felt the need to cripple, blind or pin a damn thing.

I only chose my skill upgrades by how well my per-turn damage output scaled with each skill point, and whether the skill would do enough damage that I'd actually use it early in combat. For instance, when I had Steady Shot useable every two turns in Aim mode, I would do 1. Steady Shot - 2. Dual Arrows - 3. Steady Shot - 4. Scatter Shot - 5. Steady Shot - 6. Volley of Arrows or Relaxed Shot - 7. Steady Shot - 8. Dual Arrows - 9. Steady Shot - 10. The other skill from turn 6 or PA - 11. Steady Shot - 12. One of the other skills.

Since very few fights actually lasted 10 turns, much less 12, I did not generally give a damn about those other skills.

Basically, max every other AoE before PA, and max Aim and Steady Shot first of all while constantly putting a bit into Bow Mastery.

peacedog wrote:I'm unclear on how to stat up. I realized I was pumping dex - and you need to do some of that, obviously - but I should probably be putting more in strength. Enough dex to get the talents I need/use the bows I want but make strength the priority otherwise?

I went for a rough 30% str, 50% dex, 20% con split after the first few levels and did alright. Going heavily into Dex is required to keep your defense stat at a tolerable level, make the ScS stun proc reliably and have enough acc to reliably hit things when Aim is on cooldown; If you're not playing a Skellie, you might have the spare generics to just directly boost your accuracy and armour instead, but I doubt the extra str will be nearly enough to compensate for the reduction in stun effect and Master-Skeleton-Archer-dodgeability.