ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

I think bpat's list require another 3d since mex's list is about insane
Btw still cant concern about how skirmishers are better than archers even on normal, i felt them so limited and archers have imho better tools like early power spike with aim, aoe stun, rush and a better stamina management

Not only that but Arcane Blade stat build is all over the place. You need everything at once. Str for good armor/weapons, Dex for your talents, Mag for some other talents, Cun for even more talents (proc chance on your skills)

Archer has extremely poor defense while Skirmisher has merely underwhelming defense. Also Acrobatics is better than Field Control. Skirmisher is pretty much a straight upgrade from Archer past the very early game where 1/5 Aim gives Archer very high damage output.

A Normal Tier List should probably be based on how many buttons you have to press as this seems to be the biggest issue for new players.

Are Skirmisher's Called Shots able to ignore slow motion, gravity locus etc?

If not then I'd reckon Archer is better with Rapid Shot and debuffing arrows being able to land reliably by targeting beyond the intended target. It's critical to completely disable the randrares/uniques before they have a chance to threaten you when you have such meager defenses, and insane firing speed without reliance on ammo ego debuffs (when Called Shots don't work thanks to Slow Motion) really helps.(Skirmisher's advantage isn't really formidable enough on Insane imo, and Intuitive Shot alone outshines Buckler training)

InabaYap wrote:Are Skirmisher's Called Shots able to ignore slow motion, gravity locus etc?

If not then I'd reckon Archer is better with Rapid Shot and debuffing arrows being able to land reliably by targeting beyond the intended target. It's critical to completely disable the randrares/uniques before they have a chance to threaten you when you have such meager defenses, and insane firing speed without reliance on ammo ego debuffs (when Called Shots don't work thanks to Slow Motion) really helps.(Skirmisher's advantage isn't really formidable enough on Insane imo, and Intuitive Shot alone outshines Buckler training)

Yes, Skirmisher's Called Shots have instant travel time, basically they smack the target instantly at range without travelling AND have the added bonus to ignore all targets in-between.
Archer has nothing on skirmisher honestly and it's where it belongs in the list. Rapid shot hinders you actually being able to land effects with how it scales and lowers phys power and accuracy, and Trained Reactions alone is probably better than anything archer has, not to mention Eternal Warrior. Overall Skirmisher is a little underappreciated.
Also, I think Cursed is probably tier D.

Intuitive Shot is great but only applies to melee. Ranged attacks are the real concern, since melee threats will be heavily debuffed before they can inflict significant damage, but ranged enemies will frequently alpha strike on their first or second turn for massive damage. Skirmisher blatantly outclasses Archer when it comes to defending against these, with a passive 40+% chance to deflect projectiles (and automatic counterattack), Called Shots to apply debuffs on the very first turn, and Trained Reactions to actually survive getting hit by things.

Archer has somewhat better offense than Skirmisher, but defense and mobility are both much more important than offense. The best argument you can really make for Archer in its current state would be the use of Rapid Fire to fire and retreat repeatedly, but this tactic falls apart for a variety of reasons.

SHESH DID IT THE ABSOLUTE MADMAN

BRAWLER S

How did he kill the final bosses?

Time to nerf Brawler. Can shesh win with cursed now?

voltteccer wrote:

How did he kill the final bosses?

No seriously, how did he do it? I thought Argoniel was supposed to be pretty much unkillable for brawlers thanks to Spine.

Anyways, major props to shesh for the win! That's the first post-HP buff non-mage madness win we've had so far, right?

voltteccer wrote:

How did he kill the final bosses?

Very slowly.

A class that wins Madness 2% (and I wish this was hyperbole) of the time (by luck) is not Tier S.

Mex wrote:A class that wins Madness 2% (and I wish this was hyperbole) of the time (by luck) is not Tier S.

mex i'm afraid you're a noob

I'll throw the pebble which starts the avalanche: how should this list change for 1.5.0+?