ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

I have played back in b38 and a little in b42, i rushed to get the paradox mage, which i got without much problem, and it has remained my favourite class. However i have some problems I'd like some advice on, so that i can get to the east. I noticed the board has no strategy discussion/theory crafting section, so i assume this is the place to ask. As far as where i'm having these problems, on a typical playthrough (adventure), i will beat all tier 1 and tier 2 zones, halfling complex, tempest peak, sher'tul temple. but can't beat dreadfell. I lose plenty of lives on the way to dreadfell, generally one shotted in sandworm, one shotted in daikara, and cc chained in daikara eat most of my lives.

A: Evaluating items: How do you decide what items are worth keeping, replacing old gear, holding as backup, et cetera. This especially applies when items have different qualities (tier 3 item with 1 useful minor ego vs tier 2 item with 1 useful major ego vs artifact....).

The live chat gets mad and yells at me when i ask for guidelines, yelling "it depends!" And i understand that these decisions do depend, but i think there has to be some sorta guidelines i can at least look to. sorry in advance if this question offends anyone.

B: Avoiding instant deaths: I'd say this constitutes 4/5ths of my deaths at the minimum. This isn't as big a problem when i'm a paradox mage, as i can precog constantly, but even there it is annoying to do. How do i avoid instant deaths from unseen enemies? This is my biggest problem, as one of these can make me just not want to continue for a while

C: Skill selection: Is it better to go thick, or to thin them between lots of skills? Is it better to go tall in the tree? or to widen out? For stats, i'd like some idea of how much con i should be getting, right now about 1/3 of my points goes into constitution. For Generic points, is it better to max out my runes/infusions as quickly as possible?

D: Hitting a wall: Sometimes i reach a point where i should be going against a boss, but my character feels too weak, where i either have to stair scum until luck works in my favour, or swing on a 2:1 shot on a sustained mobility fight, where luck of the rolls also seems to play a significant role. I must be approaching it wrong or doing something wrong. Sandworm queen is the most common first wall, though sometimes it is a redidculous joke of a boss fight, and sometimes i have to leave it until i did every sidequest and get to the boss in daikara before going back to feel ready (depending on location and surroundings). More commonly is the wall at dreadfell, as i don't know if i even have any other options than to press my luck.

E: Adventure parties: I was told to avoid these, and that is super easy, though very annoying and time consuming for something that is virtually a given. However, since i leave them alone, there are generally a dozen or so on the map (my estimate based on density of sightings) by the time i beat all the tier 2 dungeons, and 3 on screen at once becomes the norm around the shalore kingdom. Am i still suppost to avoid them? If i'm suppost to keep the populations down, any hints?

F: Map corrutption: My overworld map gets corrupted, by the time i beat daikara, i can't go anywhere on the world map without having multiple garbage tiles on screen, is there a way to prevent this?

finally:
what has changed in these 4 version, i tried reading the patch notes, but since "new content," "balance changes," "quality of life changes," and "bug fixes" are all one jumbled mess, it is hard to read, and easy to miss something. Also, many changes are referenced purely by skill name, and i don't have every character's skill set memorized. Is there anything i need to be aware of (besides orange items, which i assumed were tier 2 artifacts).

Thank you in advance to everyone!

Gamer-man wrote: A: Evaluating items: How do you decide what items are worth keeping, replacing old gear, holding as backup, et cetera. This especially applies when items have different qualities (tier 3 item with 1 useful minor ego vs tier 2 item with 1 useful major ego vs artifact....).

The live chat gets mad and yells at me when i ask for guidelines, yelling "it depends!" And i understand that these decisions do depend, but i think there has to be some sorta guidelines i can at least look to. sorry in advance if this question offends anyone.

I can tell you my guidelines, they may or may not apply to your style of play.

For your standard gear, as a general rule, early on I found it best to equip +hp items. I used to hog resistances but someone on the chat correctly pointed out to me (I can't remember who, sorry!) that when you have 300 hp, having 30 extra hp is like having 10% resistance to all. This is especially important for yeeks, but not as important for archmages that focus on disruption shields. Classes that have high hp (such as berserkers) might go for a different strategy - get your damage as high as possible, and several means of getting away when it gets rough. It's difficult to apply a universal rule because each class plays differently.

As for backups, I always keep all good resistance gear I can find for: fire, cold, lightning, blight, physical damage. I usually don't keep a temporal set (just a few rings if I can find them, which tends to be enough), but some people do that too.

When you know that a dungeon/area favors a certain element, it's usually good to load up on resistances - how much depends on the capabilities of your class. I can tell you that 50+% blight resistance makes dark crypt a much easier experience than you would think - if you are lucky to find it.

Because of the amount of resistance gear you will be hogging around, it's good to either use a vault as storage until you get your fortress (since it's the only safe place to store loot) or get the fortress early - level 18 seems to be ok unless you meet something really, really bad on the bottom of Nur, in which case you should run away and come back later.

As for what to focus on after you get past the very early game - that entirely depends on what drops. What is important to understand is how diminishing returns work for power and saves. That's why at one point you need to stop thinking about spellpower and start thinking more about +damage%.

Artifacts are usually the best pieces of loot, but they are also almost always no-brainers when it comes to whether you should use them or not, so I don't think specific advice is necessary.

B: Avoiding instant deaths: I'd say this constitutes 4/5ths of my deaths at the minimum. This isn't as big a problem when i'm a paradox mage, as i can precog constantly, but even there it is annoying to do. How do i avoid instant deaths from unseen enemies? This is my biggest problem, as one of these can make me just not want to continue for a while

It would help if you said what exactly is one-shotting you. Very few things in the early game actually do that, especially on paradox mages that have entropic field on. There is a difference between being one-shotted and two-shotted. The first is a problem, the second is user error.

As for unseen enemies, getting just one level of heightened senses, which you can get from a thief escort or by investing 2 generic points if that category is unlocked, helps a lot with that problem.

More hp and more con and more thick skin and more resistances and more defensive abilities (like entropic field) usually solves the one shotting problem.

C: Skill selection: Is it better to go thick, or to thin them between lots of skills? Is it better to go tall in the tree? or to widen out? For stats, i'd like some idea of how much con i should be getting, right now about 1/3 of my points goes into constitution. For Generic points, is it better to max out my runes/infusions as quickly as possible?

That's a lot of very broad questions. You want to identify what offensive and defensive talents you will use the most and focus on them. Some abilities are utility and work well enough with just 1 point invested. I haven't played paradox mages enough to be able to give you specific instructions, but I know lots of people focus on dust to dust, slow, gravity well, and redux for their offense.

The best advice I can give you on talents is to look up past winners on character vault (as long as they aren't on exploration difficulty). These people obviously did something right, and if several people max certain skills, it's a good bet that this skill is good to max.

As for constitution, I always invest heavily in con (unless playing solipsists). I stop investing in my main attributes at one point and start pushing con to get thick skin to 4/5 before I start Dreadfell if I'm not playing a class with an xp penalty or 3/5 if I am. It's something you need to plan out.

Regarding infusions, spending your first cat point on an extra infusion is a good rule of thumb. It's better for some classes than for others. I'd say one teleport or movement, one regen/heal, one shield and one wild is a standard setup, although there are different options (2 shields 1 regen 1 heal, 2 shields 1 regen 1 movement, 2 regens 2 movement with AM etc). I'd say it mostly depends on what drops and what class you are playing. Rune of the Rift is meant for Paradox mages, so you should probably use it.

D: Hitting a wall: Sometimes i reach a point where i should be going against a boss, but my character feels too weak, where i either have to stair scum until luck works in my favour, or swing on a 2:1 shot on a sustained mobility fight, where luck of the rolls also seems to play a significant role. I must be approaching it wrong or doing something wrong. Sandworm queen is the most common first wall, though sometimes it is a redidculous joke of a boss fight, and sometimes i have to leave it until i did every sidequest and get to the boss in daikara before going back to feel ready (depending on location and surroundings). More commonly is the wall at dreadfell, as i don't know if i even have any other options than to press my luck.

I usually do sandworm lair as a 3rd T2 dungeon, after maze and old forest. Best you can hope for is that you have a teleport or a movement infusion. If you don't, it may be worth it to open infusion/rune shops in Derth, Shatur and Elvala. If you still don't have one, still do it but be extra careful.

Regarding Dreadfell:as throughout your entire post, you don't give a lot of specifics. What exactly kills you in Dreadfell? There is a finite list of what can kill you there.

If you're finding everything hard, it may be that you are playing your class wrong (focusing on wrong abilities) or don't have enough experience on what works and what doesn't. The best advice I can give you is to keep trying, but don't do the same thing over and over again. Try something different, and try to see what's wrong with your approach. Paradox mages are supposed to be great at crowd control, using abilities to pin, slow, and confuse enemies, rather than raw power. If you have specific questions about the class, I'm sure someone will be able to answer them.

You can always play something easy, like alchemist, summoner or solipsist.

Adventure parties: I was told to avoid these, and that is super easy, though very annoying and time consuming for something that is virtually a given. However, since i leave them alone, there are generally a dozen or so on the map (my estimate based on density of sightings) by the time i beat all the tier 2 dungeons, and 3 on screen at once becomes the norm around the shalore kingdom. Am i still suppost to avoid them? If i'm suppost to keep the populations down, any hints?

Yeah. Keep avoiding them.

F: Map corrutption: My overworld map gets corrupted, by the time i beat daikara, i can't go anywhere on the world map without having multiple garbage tiles on screen, is there a way to prevent this?

This belongs in the bug forum.

finally:
what has changed in these 4 version, i tried reading the patch notes, but since "new content," "balance changes," "quality of life changes," and "bug fixes" are all one jumbled mess, it is hard to read, and easy to miss something. Also, many changes are referenced purely by skill name, and i don't have every character's skill set memorized. Is there anything i need to be aware of (besides orange items, which i assumed were tier 2 artifacts).

Do you really think someone can compress 4 versions worth of changes into a single list that will be useful to you?

Learn by doing. If you meet a monster with class abilities, inspect it and read the description of the abilities. No one memorizes every ability in the game. Also, try asking specific questions, rather than asking for broad advice.

Gamer-man wrote:As far as where i'm having these problems, on a typical playthrough (adventure), i will beat all tier 1 and tier 2 zones, halfling complex, tempest peak, sher'tul temple. but can't beat dreadfell. I lose plenty of lives on the way to dreadfell, generally one shotted in sandworm, one shotted in daikara, and cc chained in daikara eat most of my lives.

One thing I have noticed with this game: contrary to most other roguelikes, you don't always want to level up as much as possible before going to a dangerous area like Dreadfell. That is because the areas scale with your experience level (I think there's a list in wiki), so if you enter them at high character level the monsters will be much, much nastier. You also tend to find enough quality equipment even for the more equimpent-dependent classes witout much grinding needed. The only exeptions to this are runes and infusions, especially shielding/regen/healing ones, you probably will have to grind for them a bit. This too can be avoided by playing an achmage, built correctly they can actually get by with just wild infusions if needed. I personally always try to do the old forest > lake nur route at level 15 and to dreadfell right after that, if possible.

laru wrote:contrary to most other roguelikes, you don't always want to level up as much as possible before going to a dangerous area like Dreadfell. That is because the areas scale with your experience level (I think there's a list in wiki), so if you enter them at high character level the monsters will be much, much nastier.

I disagree. I usually do all the lower-level zones first, and enter Dreadfell around level 25. I don't usually get killed before meeting the Master; and even he seldom gets me more than once.

Gamer-man wrote:C: Skill selection: Is it better to go thick, or to thin them between lots of skills? Is it better to go tall in the tree? or to widen out?

That depends on how much better the skill gets on higher levels, and how much you rely on the skill. Some skills give are awesome even with just one point (but if they are really important for your character, you may still want to invest into them further), others eventually get useless if you don't max them (and sometimes even if you do).

Gamer-man wrote:For stats, i'd like some idea of how much con i should be getting, right now about 1/3 of my points goes into constitution.

That sounds about right.

Gamer-man wrote:For Generic points, is it better to max out my runes/infusions as quickly as possible?

Just don't unlock a tree when there are unlocked trees left you want to keep investing in until the next cat point. For some builds, that may mean spending their first two cat points on unlocking trees, but most can buy at least one inscription slot first.

Gamer-man wrote:E: Adventure parties: I was told to avoid these, and that is super easy, though very annoying and time consuming for something that is virtually a given. However, since i leave them alone, there are generally a dozen or so on the map (my estimate based on density of sightings) by the time i beat all the tier 2 dungeons, and 3 on screen at once becomes the norm around the shalore kingdom. Am i still suppost to avoid them? If i'm suppost to keep the populations down, any hints?

If you have a strong character, adventurer parties are a nuisance, at worst, and taking them on should rarely pose a challenge. The way you describe your characters, however, you probably should keep avoiding them.

Gamer-man wrote:A:

Sorta' guidelines... it's hard to say anything universal, exactly; as the whole "it depends" insinuates, exactly what you're going to be particularly valuing depends heavily on class and, at times, the particular way you're building that class.

That said, with the tier comparison thing, basically you just run the numbers and go with whatever's most beneficial. If a d-steel green's giving you more of the bang you're looking for over a steel blue, go for the d-steel. If an artifact's providing a greater bonus, go with that.

Generally a higher tier green isn't going to be more attractive than a lower tier blue or purple, but that depends on how many tiers it's skipping (high-quality steel can usually match low-quality d-steel, high-quality d-steel low-quality stralite, etc, but a steel is almost never going to outmatch a stralite or voratun.) and what sort of item it is; the only difference between an iron and a voratun hat, ferex, is that the latter is more likely to get more powerful egos (that is to say, if you have the same sort of ego on both -- say "of constitution" -- then the voratun one's more likely to get a larger bonus.), while the difference between an iron and a voratun weapon is unutterably tremendous and there's basically no way whatsoever for an iron weapon to be valued higher than voratun.

Other than that, it depends on class and build. Some prefer to stack up spellpower, others mind or physical. Some are heavily valuing saves, in comparison to other stats. Others are stacking resistances of varying sorts. Still others are after particular effects -- melee classes (all melee classes) want boots of rushing, ferex, and everybody loves speed boots (or invigoration, if you happen to be antimagic).

And then, it may vary pretty radically based on build; my standard melee mindslayers are going to be specced pretty differently in a lot of ways compared to a focus!slayer, and a mindpower-focused wyrmic (much more viable in the next beta, by the way) is going to be prioritizing kit considerably different than a standard melee/breath wyrmic.

As for stuff to hold for swap out... particular resistances (lightning and blight come to mind, but there's others) are possibilities. Particular unique effects (summertide phial, sources of teleportation -- amulet, etc. -- particular debuff stuff on weapons, slime, ice, so forth, speed boots) can be a good idea to keep around, as well. A surplus of useful inscriptions is a nice thing to just leave in your inventory, since they weigh basically nothing. I personally don't bother much with active kit swapping (too much effort ), but it can help out quite a bit if you tailor your resists and suchlike to a particular zone or challenge.

B:

Better information and being tougher, mostly. If you're having problems with folks hitting you from the darkness, either get higher light radius, invest in infravision/that survival talent (not piercing sight, the other one), or start spamming illumination around (sun infusion, wand, staff, phial of summertide). Later in the game you might have sources of telepathy. If you're a summoning class and you're in an area you know can occasionally generate one-shot threats, summon stuff around corners and see if something nukes the bugger. The biggest deal is knowing the threat's there and how you should be reacting to it, which is largely just a thing that comes from playing.

As for being tougher, well, just that. Better con investment, maybe picking up some +hp kit or stacking up the damage type resistances. Making sure you've got your holes versus particularly debilitating status effects covered, etc., so forth, so on.

C:

5k17 and supermini covered this well.

D:

Here, I'm not sure. Sandworm queen's usually a pretty easy fight for me, and has been even long before I was some hilarious facimile of decent at this game (read: I don't consider myself very good in any objective sense ). Generally, though, if it feels like luck is playing a major role in your fights... you need to figure out why and, more importantly how to remove luck from the fights. Luck, taking risks, etc., so forth, so on, is anathema to roguelike play, where one of your primary roles and desires is specifically mitigate the effects of luck on your game. The less you taunt the RNG, the less it decides to eat you for it. Pay attention to what's killing you and, just as importantly, what would help you avoid it. Then, prioritize things (talent and kit choice, gameplay habits -- tactics, etc. -- so forth, so on) to help you avoid it, and see what's killing once you've done that. Then return to step one and repeat the process. Eventually you'll come to the point you know what you need to do to get out of any particular situation, and how to preemptively set yourself up to do just that.

E:

If you're not supremely confident in your build, I would heavily recommend avoiding adventurer parties like they're a life consuming plague, because they're probably going to chop off some lives if you're not careful, and, given enough time and attempts, even if you are.

You don't need to worry about the amount building up, though. The various halfling patrols and whatnot kill adventurer parties (sometimes, heh.) and overall keep the numbers comfortable. You don't have to worry about culling the herd, it'll take care of itself.

F:

Definitely a bug. You might try playing in ASCII mode, though, if you can stand it. It's managed to sidestep the occasional grapical problem in the past.

finally:

Definitely as supermini said, to a degree. There's been plenty of changes, and it's difficult to summarize exactly what's important among them (mostly because I never remember the changes for very long once I've settled into a new version ). Just read through stuff, and if it comes to it referance the talent files themselves to see what stuff does. The .team in your ../game/modules/ folder can be opened with anything that opens a .zip or .rar file, and then it's ../data/talents/<talent tree> to get to the talent stuff. Most of it's pretty human readable, but even if you can't parse the code enough to figure out what's happening, you can just check the descriptions; they're usually near the end of the particular talent code.

Thick vs thin is a tough question, but for paradox mage I recommend going deep in a few trees and shallow in most others. Edge more or less designed the class that way. Build a few defensive options, and use inscriptions or charms.

A: All of that makes sense, thanks

B: My instant deaths (they are 1 turn deaths), are usually from enemies out of sight. In daikara it is particularly bad, where even a lvl20 bulwark is instantly dieing in the middle of a long clear hallway sometimes, occasionally even when i think i cleared the floor completely, so i don't really know. Will it tell me in the game logs if i'm killed by an out of sight enemy? As I said, it doesn't happen as much with the paradox mage because i spam precognition. Being two shotted is not a problem ever with paradox mage or temporal warden as i have the best teleport in the game.

D: to be more specific the places where i hit a wall is sandworm queen lair (i generally do this as my 5th dungeon, 3rd T2 dungeon, unless the hidden compound prompt shows up) at the sandworm queen itself, though as i said, sometimes the sandworm queen isn't noticeably more difficult than the mobs (i've killed her on accident before), and sometimes she oneshots me from out of sight, or i get cc-chained and die. the other place is dreadfell's boss, though maybe i just need to hit and run a lot longer against him.

E: i know it is a bug, an already known one, i just was wondering if there was a known cause so i can avoid it. I'd try ascii, but it only effects world map (where i spend the least amount of time), and i'm not sure how ascii handles precog's projectile bugs.

F: Ok, just what are the pinkish orange items then?

as for "easy classes", so far i've tried: paradox (easy), TWarden (easy), Bulwark (easy), Archer (moderate), summoner (moderate), brawler (hard), Cursed (hard), Alchemist (hard). I want to like the alchemist, but i can't get the hang of him. i havn't unlocked solipsist to give them a try (or reaver or Anorithil for that matter)

are there any videos online of strong players playing tome4?

anyways THANKS EVERYONE! this has been informative.

Getting a hang of an alchemist shouldn't be too difficult with a bit of practice. Remember, the golem is easily the most deadly "ability" of any class at the beginning. Frequently, you can just wander slowly around and let the golem clear a level for you without ever having to personally engage an enemy. If your golem gets killed, teleport out and create a new one. Wash, rinse, repeat until even the strongest monsters are dust. In the meantime, as your levels shoot up, just start investing in bombs. Max out at least the first three Explosive Admixtures, start converting all metal items you find to gems and then alchemist gems rather than transmogrifying them (or, if you need money, you can transmogrify a few of the gems -- most, but not all, are worth more than the original item, especially early on.) Get a few points in infusions and you're good to kill pretty much anything in the game even before you start powering up your golem, especially once you're no longer harmed by your own bombs and can drop an area-effect spell wherever you want. And the golem talents aren't too shabby. Over and above making your golem stronger, stuff like Golem portal and Advanced Golemancy skills are excellent. Example: teleport away from your golem, draw some enemies in, Golem Portal, listen to their screams (and heal/Supercharge golem regularly.) You can take control of your golem for peering around those corners that you dread so much. Generally, alchemists are really worthy practicing if you're looking for an extremely powerful character in the long run. If you want to have even more fun, run a dwarf alchemist. They lack some of the starting advantages of other races when playing a magic user, but you can get extremely rich with an alchemist (see above, re gems) and max out Power is Money to raise your saves and survivability.

Also, in general, if you can get Arcane Eye (from a Seer escort or from using a class that has it), you can look around for enemies before entering an area.

The pinkish/orange items are randarts. Certain ones (the orange, I believe) can be dropped by anyone, while others (the pinks, I believe) can only be dropped by rares. Ironically, the ones dropped by "anyone" are rarer than the ones dropped by rares, in my experience, because rares aren't all that uncommon. They can be quite useful, but can also be pretty worthless. It's a crapshoot. They're rarely as powerful as a true artifact, but you can get some nice randartifact versions of items that have few or no really powerful regular version (wands, torques and diggers are my favorite.)

Edit: it's also possible to use certain AoE spells for limited protection from hidden enemies. Not all of them affect unseen enemies (Glacial Vapor, for instance) but many of them, including bombs, can be cast at or around corners, or down hallways, to at least harm, if not kill, hidden foes. I've cleared some pretty nasty vaults with pretty nasty foes without ever putting myself in the line of fire.

Sounds like you are dying to stun/freeze. That is the most important of the resistances followed closely by confusion resist.

If you know you happen to have problems with certain areas just clear the first level and come back over to dive and finish them. The scaling is set the first time you enter. For instance I open the old forest usually as my second dungeon, clear the first level and then come back later. If I plan on bothering with the graveyard open it EARLY and come back later. You can do the same with the sandworm dungeon and dakira.

Some enemies are grossly out of whack dangerous. (doomed and solipists being the worst). Learn to flee. Sometimes random chance just puts something ridiculous in your way. Rares and vaults are the most likely culprits. A rushing lvl 30 myrmidon can show up right away in a cash vault and let it can instantly walk around.

Dakira is usually trivial (but then so is dreafall) not sure what you are doing wrong. Dakira you know what the dangers are. Drakes that breathe(mostly cold), giants that confuse and throw rocks, and a endboss who breathes for alot of cold damage and freezes you so she can walk closer.

Does it lock the level in for the entire dungeon when you enter it early, or just for the floor you enter?

Also, in daikara, i know it isn't the giants, or the drakes that are instant killing me, neither of them do anywhere near enough damage to the bulwark to oneshot him.

I am rather curious what is killing you in Daikara in one turn. None of the standard monsters should be able to daze you, which is the primary cause of insta-death. Confuse/boulder spam can be troubling, especially if you can't retaliate from range.

Gamer-man wrote:Will it tell me in the game logs if i'm killed by an out of sight enemy?

The logs are very hard to read, because the order in which the game presents information is not consistent. The trick is to figure out where a single action begins and ends. Once you've identified that, the first line usually tells you what the action was, and the last line tells you what it did, and all the lines in between are side effects.

Here's an example. All of the lines in that post happened instantaneously, from my point of view -- I was walking along, and suddenly I was dead. From the monster's point of view, it was 2 turns, because I was dazed (unable to act) at the end of the first turn, which allowed it to act again, and kill me, before I even got user interface control back. Notice that the "saving game" lines appear right in the middle of the monster's attack. The lines that show me hitting the monster are all retaliation damage.

The tier 2 dungeons were much more difficult before I realized how critical Con is to every build. You need to have enough HP to take a few unexpected big hits and then successfully use your escape.