ToME: the Tales of Maj'Eyal

Not entirely sure how far I can take this, but (barring an unlock for something new and interesting) it's looking to be my go-to build for a while. Need some advice on exactly how to go about it.

After seeing some of my options and playing around with it for a bit, I am looking at primarily relying on the distance set of summons for my offense (I haven't yet gotten to see the more advanced minotaur or stone golem, but the wolf and jelly didn't really impress me.) and already know that I'm maxing hydra. (While those 3 breaths last... wow. HUGE damage potential.) I've been sticking with dual-wielding mindstars, since the game started me that way, and I'm looking at using my first talent point to unlock the mind-star mastery generic skill, so I won't be quite as defenseless when something corners me in a hallway with no summon to protect me. (Also, crystal leaves and the healing attack maneuver look quite promising, especially the leaves. Protection for me and my summons, while harming enemies? Yes please!) However, my mindstar damage seems to be remarkably low... I'm hoping that the first talent (for the psionic mindstar blade things) will help to fix that... Is that going to work out? (And while we're at it, what affects damage on a mindstar? Says 40% willpower (got plenty of that) and 10% cunning (Not as much, but 20 so I can keep two summons out), but where is the other 50% coming from?

I'm also concerned over the low duration on my summons... (Especially hydra with it's higher cooldown time.) Master summoner might help with that, but If I use my first talent unlock for mind-star mastery, as mentioned above, it'll be level 20 before I can get it... And I question my ability to keep myself alive long enough for that.

I've currently been devoting most of my stat points towards willpower, with the occasional points tossed to cunning for extra summons, and the occasional points tossed to strength/constitution for a bit more carrying capacity/health. Current stat points are 15 strength, 17 dexterity, 12 constitution; 11 magic, 26 willpower, 20 cunning; at level 7. Exactly how should I continue to throw skill points onto that, If the goal is summoning plus mindstar combat as an emergency fallback (or minion-killer for the occasional rat/worm/etc. that sneaks past my summons?

Any advice would be appreciated, thanks in advance.

(And for the record, given the rarity of revival items in ADOM, am I lucky as blazes to find a certain artifact potion that gives me an extra life? Or is that relatively common here?)

Edit: Also, what exactly should I be devoting my generic talent-points towards? I have 6 of those floating around, the only one I've yet used was to unlock the healing touch ability, and I have no clue what might be helpful to this build out of the generic set... I also have a number of currently available class talent-points still, having maxed the summons i feel are useful for my current level, holding the rest to help max some of the later-game ones at the moment, unless something else shows up that I'll need to spend them on now. Currently, I just have the one point in war hound and jelly, hoping for better things from minotaur/stone golem; 1 point in Ratch larva, and 3 in Hydra. Don't really see the 'utility' set as useful, so I haven't yet tossed points in it. Manual control of summons might be nice, but the expense to get there is a bit high, not sure it's worth the trouble.

Crim, The Red Thunder wrote:However, my mindstar damage seems to be remarkably low... I'm hoping that the first talent (for the psionic mindstar blade things) will help to fix that... Is that going to work out? (And while we're at it, what affects damage on a mindstar? Says 40% willpower (got plenty of that) and 10% cunning (Not as much, but 20 so I can keep two summons out), but where is the other 50% coming from?

The extra 50% doesn't come from anywhere. Mindstars get half as much bonus damage from stats as regular one-handed weapons. Psiblades change that, plus they don't suffer the usual penalty for wielding off-handed weapons. Still, don't expect Mindstar Mastery to turn you into a melee machine. Mindstars are mostly meant to be the psi/nature equivalent of staves; the Mastery tree gives you some decent utility to go with them.

I'm also concerned over the low duration on my summons... (Especially hydra with it's higher cooldown time.)

Which is why I like the basic, high-duration, low-cooldown summons, like the War Hound and Ritch Flamespitter. They're surprisingly respectable once you've invested in their talents a bit.

I've currently been devoting most of my stat points towards willpower, with the occasional points tossed to cunning for extra summons, and the occasional points tossed to strength/constitution for a bit more carrying capacity/health. Current stat points are 15 strength, 17 dexterity, 12 constitution; 11 magic, 26 willpower, 20 cunning; at level 7. Exactly how should I continue to throw skill points onto that, If the goal is summoning plus mindstar combat as an emergency fallback (or minion-killer for the occasional rat/worm/etc. that sneaks past my summons?

You need more Cunning. I don't feel comfortable as a summoner until I can throw out at least three summons at once. You don't really need Dexterity, as you're mostly a ranged fighter. Strength is alright if you want to wear armor (bear in mind that fatigue increases your equilibrium fail rate, though), but carrying capacity's not that important. Constitution is a good tertiary stat for any class. Willpower is extremely useful and you should keep pumping it.

(And for the record, given the rarity of revival items in ADOM, am I lucky as blazes to find a certain artifact potion that gives me an extra life? Or is that relatively common here?)

You are lucky as blazes. Auto-revival can only be found on a select few artifacts and talents.

Oh, and don't forget to drink that potion. It doesn't do you any good just sitting in your inventory.

The Blood of Life is pretty common, to be honest.

Keep in mind that the jelly is for keeping equilibrium low in long fights. It's also good for blocking hallways. You'll want to be able to keep up 3 or 4 summons at any time, so don't neglect Cunning. The ritch is incredible and more sustainable than chains of hydras and dragons. I can't say much about mindstars, but you'd probably be better off choosing inscriptions that keep you safe, healthy and mobile than trying to fight while cornered. I recommend an early sun infusion, for the blinding, and a movement infusion soon after. Since you'll be fronting lots of meat shields, recovery isn't as important for your inscription set (though a wild infusion is never a bad idea). Consider unlocking an additional inscription slot instead of the mindstar category, and leave a mindstar-based summoner for a later playthrough. Also, try using a sling for ranged support. You can by the 'Shoot' talent at shops in Last Hope.

It might be obvious - take advantage of fighting enemies that can't see you with summons. Summoners are tedious, but they can steamroll just about everything up to Dreadfell with that strategy.

Don't invest in strength for the carry capacity. If you're carrying around so much stuff that your inventory fills up, drop or sell it. Once you reach a certain point in the game, you'll never need to carry around crap just to sell it.

Ummm... Duration is the same on all summons (outside utility, at least... Still haven't messed with those), except for minotaur (shorter, and I only just got to where I can try it.), and Fire Drake, at least according to the tooltips. All the others have a duration of 7. My hydra is at 12 when maxed, unless the others are higher-duration then that when maxed, then how are they better? (Clarification: What did you mean by High Duration?) The cooldown is lower, yes, but not by huge tons. (And I'm already using both of those extensively. Ritch Flamespitter is a GREAT turret, but low in damage output, though it also makes a great test to see if a room is occupied. War hound is decent to suck up some blows and trade hits with something while I deal with what else is around, but I'm not impressed with it's damage output either...)

And I've been enjoying the cannon that is the hydra. Haven't seen Fire Drake so I don't know how that would play out yet, but the bloody cannon clears mini-vaults like it was nothing. That thing has saved my life, and killed more things then anything else I've ever done. Only downside is after 3 breaths, it does crap for damage...

Brief attempt with the minotaur at one hasn't shown huge increases in damage over the war hound... Worth continuing to invest for taking down tough enemies? (Still waiting to try out Stone Golem and Fire drake.)

I'll try and get cunning up to 30, but if I dump everything there, I won't have it till level 10, and that would preclude more points in willpower or anything else along the way.

Any further advice?

(I've only dumped 1 point in strength, to see if it improved mindstar damage, mostly. The extra carrying capacity was just a side benefit, but I had considered dumping extras to carry more.)

Also, how do you unlock additional inscription slots through that? I don't think I see that option on any of my talent trees...

Most of the summons have the same duration, you you're right there.

Minotaur is good for its talents, more than its damage output IMO.

You gain extra inscription slots by using an infusion/rune while you already have three, and you have a category point available. You will get the option to get a new slot instead of replacing an old one.

Strength does increase mindstar damage significantly more than WIL or CUN at the start, because one part of the formula for damage is 10% of cunning + 40% of willpower + physical power (for that mindstar).

Mewtarthio wrote: You need more Cunning. I don't feel comfortable as a summoner until I can throw out at least three summons at once. You don't really need Dexterity, as you're mostly a ranged fighter. Strength is alright if you want to wear armor (bear in mind that fatigue increases your equilibrium fail rate, though), but carrying capacity's not that important. Constitution is a good tertiary stat for any class. Willpower is extremely useful and you should keep pumping it.

I was under the impression that fatigue doesn't effect equilibrium because it was a wild-gift. Could be wrong, a while since I played a summoner.

Fatigue shouldn't be doing anything to equi talents, yeah. It and vim are the only two fatigue doesn't mess with.

About the only thing I can throw is is that all my summoners, each and every bloody one, get the Augmentation tree with their first category point, and then beeline to resilience and max it ASAP. Flat out, I'd call resilience the summoner's MVP passive. The summon duration boost is a simply tremendous aid for keeping multiple ranged attackers up and running while melee buggers do the meatshield thing. Iirc, with resilience and hydra maxed, you can maintain three of the critters out at the same time (on top of other summons, if you've got the cunning for it), though the EQ cost tends to make it difficult to maintain for long. Three hydras up at once pretty much melts the entire first go through the west, though.

Probably can manage more nowadays, with master summoner running. It's been a few versions since I've bothered getting a summoner off the ground, heh.

Anyway, rest of the talents in Augmentation are kinda' meh (except phase summon, which largely functions as a turn-delay controlled teleport, but you mostly put a point in that and be done with it), but resilience is just too useful to ignore, insofar as my runs with summoners have gone.

You need strength early because your first buy should be armor. This is also where you should be spending those extra generic points. Strnegth is every bit as good as cunning or will early up for damage with the stars, and later on your are using summons anyway. So you want enough strength to wear the best armor you can find , Summoners should be wearing heavy armor.

You need will to buy your skills at that is pretty much the only reason you need it. You need cunning for the multiple summons, you want to get up to 30 fairly soon but equipment can be a good part of this.

Do not open the mindstar tree early unless you find a couple of really extraordinary mindstars. It is possible though to find the first 2 artifact mindstars in the first 2 dungeons you do. You should base your open on what you found not on really what you wanted most.

The big problem summoners have is mobility and los. They are never sitting in the right place and have a hard time acting at the same time as their summons. The mobility problem is the exact same problem alchemists have but alchemists do NOT have the los problem (they use aoe effects that ignore friendlies and channel staff, their default attack, ignores friendlies as well). Summoners are very dependant on finding an escort that opens up some mobility and would much prefer staff combat to mindstars(this is kinda weird since many of the combat classes really really want mindstars)

I find the los problem so bad that I hate playing summoners because of it (Your ability to summon should not be blocked by los). Leads me to one piece of advice, you can cheat a summon to the other side of a wall or a creature by standing right next to that wall or creature and summoning in the wall or the creature, the summon pops up on the other side of either)

Another piece of advice is that thaloren make awful summoners. The stats are in the right place but everything else is not. If you like thaoren because of survivability try dwarf or cornac instead. Either will be a far better fit down the line. If you are more invested in thaloren then in summoner try a thaloren alchemist. If you are more invested in the summoner part try the dwarf.

Summoners would be (more) trivial to play if you could summon outside of LoS. I think the real issue with summoners is that they are just tedious. You perform largely the same actions as any other class but with less control and a delay of one turn, and the most optimal way to play involves LoS abuse. The mindstar options are interesting but don't mesh well with the concept, unlike the alchemist's bombs/channel staff and the golem.

skein wrote:Another piece of advice is that thaloren make awful summoners.

Naah... thaloren are alright summoners. Their initial active racial propagates over, iirc, (though it's been long enough I definitely may be misremembering) and the treants aren't bad to throw around, iirc. Decent meatshields. I forget what their other two racials are, though. Thaloren are just pretty alright with everything, really. Just not top of the line, per se.

Summoners can go heavy or not. The better AM artifact for 'em is leather, iirc, and armor training investment does precisely jack for anything not heavy or massive (Well... actually, I didn't check on leather. It definitely doesn't for robes, anyway.). The better stat boosts are among robes and leather, again, generally. Ideally, a summoner's never going to be in melee (unless you're going mindstars, which... frankly, summoners aren't exactly amazing melee characters, to say the least. You can go that route, but it's tremendously gimping yourself.) or being hit by arrows, so magic's about the only real threat and... again, for a while, you're getting better resists and suchlike from robes and leather. Maybe later on, but early I wouldn't particularly worry about it. There's not much in the early game that can really touch a summoner, from what I've seen.

I'd personally pretty much never put a point into strength as a summoner, though, but I wouldn't be doing mindstar melee in the early game either, if at all. Tend to go straight will/cun into con. Best defense with a summoner is to keep summons between you and damage. So happens that's the best offense, too

Alright, so that's a no on mindstars for last-ditch protection then. (Wasn't looking at it as a melee build, just as the defense for the inevitable enemy that WILL get past my summons sooner or later..., and for the Leaves Tide crystal leaves that could buff/protect me and my summons.)

Given that, should i swap out my existing mindstars (one ego, one I started with) for a more normal weapon? Found an orange one (pale pink? w/e the color is...) with +4 to willpower, which certainly wouldn't hurt, is it worth giving up the mindstars for? (Also, are those orange/pink ones what replaced randarts? They're getting a name like randarts...)

I'm hearing both yes and no on the armor skill... Worth dumping 3 points of strength in to get the first rank, delaying my 30 cunning to level 11, or stay where it is now? (Just hit 9, haven't spent the stat-points yet.)

And if not the armor (or even with...) where should I be dumping my remaining 7 generic talent points?

And, do spellpower/mindpower have ANY effect on my summon spells? Or is that completely disconnected?

Edit: The first racial power offers a +% to damage dealt, and a -% to damage taken. Summon descriptions say they inherit part of your power, and include +% damage dealt in the list. So it looks like half of your first racial would propagate over. If I plan to make use of that, should I be using my racial before I summon, or will it auto-reset there stats if I use it when they are already out?

Edit: And, my character just found a set of armor with Life regen +5.00 (Wilder-summons). Does this mean my summons all get 5 health back per turn? And what does the 'maximum hate +6 the same armor mean for me? Again, is this worth losing the +spellpower and dex on my current armor? (and a few points of protection, since the new one is a 0/0 robe...)

Finally, on the subject of robes (and enchanting), what is this 'crystal focus' supposed to do?

Mindpower is what your pretty much everything scales with as a summoner. Willpower is just the best single stat for boosting it, with cunning being slightly more than half as effective (.7 per point vs .4) and having that extra summons bit. Spellpower won't do much for you, barring some really wonky (and fairly ineffective) stuff you probably don't want to be experimenting with quite yet Raw mindpower is one of your more desirable stats on a piece of equipment -- one point of mindpower is just shy of worth a point of willpower and cunning for most things a summoner needs, barring the more summons bit.

If you're just three strength off, pick up a +str item. You should be able to find a strength hat or something pretty easy. Stat boosts from kit let you qualify for talents (and once the point's in it, even if you drop below the threshold the talent remains active). Yes, you can game it a bit if you really feel like putting the effort in to it (Keeping whole sets of particular +stat stuff laying around, using heroism infusions, etc), but it's far from necessary. S'really good for bridging little gaps like that, though.

Incidentally, just about everyone wants that first point in armor training (so you can wear metal boots and hats)... it's just any more that's fairly useless for a number of builds. You can get that first point via kit pretty easily, usually. Going further is more personal choice than anything, but if you do invest more, make sure you're wearing at least heavy armor, possibly massive -- the bonuses from points in armor training (beyond qualifying to wear the armor itself) does literally nothing if you're not wearing at least heavy. Pro/con, you'd be a bit tougher but slightly less offensively suited, plus you'd be investing points into armor training you could be putting elsewhere.

The buffs from the mindstar stuff honestly wouldn't exactly hurt and the tree offers some utility, you just don't really want to be meleeing with mindstars, y'know? Generally, anyway, there's some niche cases, but...

Absolute last ditch, maybe, but as mentioned earlier you're almost 100% of the time better off trying to escape instead.

As for the spare generics... depends on a few things. If you go antimagic, that (silence is nice, AM shield's a tremendous survivability boost for anyone pumping mindpower) and fungus (its third tier can help with equilibrium management... a lot.) aren't terrible investments. Harmony also wouldn't hurt, though it's less useful on summoners than classes that actually take damage regularly (though a nice fire damage elm staff, elemental harmony, and a lil' self flagellation can help anyone not pumping magic. Something puny with on-hit fire damage can work out, too.). You'll be able to unlock harmony without investing a category point fairly early in the game. Some points into your meditation tree wouldn't hurt much, either, if you've got nothing more useful to stick points into.

There's also a couple other generic trees you're guaranteed to have at least the chance to get access to, as well as anything you might pick up off of escorts, so you might have room for further investment there. Basically, a summoner isn't hurt too terribly by banking some generics for later.

EDIT: Re: The edits, your racial should auto-propegate to stuff that's already out, but you should be able to use inspect creature pretty trivially to check, I think. I'd have to test it to be sure, yeah. Which... in a mo. Shouldn't take much. E2: Yeah, I was wrong. You have to summon critters after wrath is active for your summons to get the boost from it.

Hate does nothing for you unless you pick up a particular generic tree later in the game, and even then it doesn't do much. It's a different metaclass's (the afflicted) primary resource.

I still haven't managed to get summons-boosters on my b42 summoner, so I'unno if the life regen boosts all your summons or not, heh. It's almost certainly more useful for you than spellpower and dex, though.

Focus... give the spoiler forum a search for particulars. Short form is it can turn a plain weapon (displays as white) into an artifact, but due to what it does (multiplies the weapon's base damage) it's better used on a late game weapon. The bonuses from it are mostly useless for a summoner, anyway.

Alright, that settles some of that. *puts on robe*

Now, about some of this 'maybe useful later stuff' I've been accumulating... Is there a safe easily accessible later spot I can dump it for storage? Given the absence of a home...

And if wrath has to be active when I summon to propagate across, does that mean it continues to last on the summons even when my own wears off? Could actually be MORE useful that way, the it would be for me, given my indirect sources of damage. May have to dump some extra generic points in that for shorter cooldown...

Crim, The Red Thunder wrote:And if wrath has to be active when I summon to propagate across, does that mean it continues to last on the summons even when my own wears off?

Checking, it does. I probably wouldn't recommend putting more points into the racial, though... it's pretty rare that you run into fights that actually last long enough for the first tier racial talent to come off cooldown, even with full point investment in it. This is mostly true for all the active first tier racial talents, honestly. Point investment just isn't very attractive for 'em.

There's a home, actually. It's just, ah. Well, initial access isn't the easiest or safest of things It's got some other functionality besides storage, which is why there's a bit of a fight to get into it. In the mean time, if you run into any vaults (easiest way to notice them is they'll have a door that pops up a warning if you try to open it), you can drop anything in one of those and the stuff won't disappear. Do note that just leaving stuff on the ground outside of vaults will cause the item to disappear eventually.

I've got a vault in the old forest, IIRC... Just anywhere inside? Do I need to worry about wandering enemies picking up my toys and running off with them like I did in ADOM or DCSS?